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	<title>Comments on: Really Not Trying To Stir Up Anything This Time &#8230; Honest</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/</link>
	<description>the webcomics blog about webcomics</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 02:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Fleen: Written by bitter, haggard wordbeasts &#187; Back From The Internetless Wastes</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-5455</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleen: Written by bitter, haggard wordbeasts &#187; Back From The Internetless Wastes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:40:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-5455</guid>
		<description>[...] Gary   &#8230; and tired as hell. Which is probably why, in the context of this, I find this far funnier than I should. After all, we here at Fleen are all about webcomics community, and not interested in provoking shitstorms or internet fights to the bloody death. That being said, Bunny is owning all over those birds (start here and keep clicking on &#8220;next&#8221;, through the ten updates that Lem managed in one day). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Gary   &#8230; and tired as hell. Which is probably why, in the context of this, I find this far funnier than I should. After all, we here at Fleen are all about webcomics community, and not interested in provoking shitstorms or internet fights to the bloody death. That being said, Bunny is owning all over those birds (start here and keep clicking on &#8220;next&#8221;, through the ten updates that Lem managed in one day). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fleen &#187; You Have No Idea How Hesitant I Am To Bring This Up</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-1996</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleen &#187; You Have No Idea How Hesitant I Am To Bring This Up</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 22:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-1996</guid>
		<description>[...] Uncategorized   In the context of not trying to stir up a shitstorm, I wrote:  If you think that they’re crap, please acknowledge that they may eventually come about, but only by piggybacking on other protocols that will establish identity in a manner much stronger than is available today. If you’re in favor of them, please acknowledge that a viable one-click micropayment system won’t be developed until a viable one-click macropayment system is developed (because with the costs of building the damn thing, any developer is going to need to see a return on investment before scaling down). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Uncategorized   In the context of not trying to stir up a shitstorm, I wrote:  If you think that they’re crap, please acknowledge that they may eventually come about, but only by piggybacking on other protocols that will establish identity in a manner much stronger than is available today. If you’re in favor of them, please acknowledge that a viable one-click micropayment system won’t be developed until a viable one-click macropayment system is developed (because with the costs of building the damn thing, any developer is going to need to see a return on investment before scaling down). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nic</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-1006</link>
		<dc:creator>Nic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 08:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-1006</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I have made Cat Garza angry! Oh noes!&lt;/i&gt;

... linky?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I have made Cat Garza angry! Oh noes!</i></p>
<p>&#8230; linky?</p>
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		<title>By: Snipergirl</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-1004</link>
		<dc:creator>Snipergirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 07:23:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-1004</guid>
		<description>I have made Cat Garza angry! Oh noes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have made Cat Garza angry! Oh noes!</p>
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		<title>By: Snipergirl</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator>Snipergirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 04:43:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-991</guid>
		<description>The really rubbish thing about this whole stupid micropayment argument is that no-one EVER asks the readers what they want or can afford.

I am a poor student. I have no credit card. How the hell can I, or any of the other hundreds of thousands of students who read webcomics, pay for micropayments? When I have a job next year, I will buy merchandise... clearly I will be rewarding the webcomic artists who have invested in my entertainment over the years, and not those who locked up their content in an unusable, unfriendly elitist format.

Yes, that's right. Micropayments are ELITIST. They alienate the very people who are the core of readership.

And if you're only catering to this tiny core of rich bitches with credit cards then how in the hell do you get your comic to get that critical mass necessary for your comic to be successful?

Micropayments are a joke.

Actually, that whole introverted/extroverted dichotomy is a bit bollocks too. For one thing, he's quite incorrectly identified some comics on the spectrum. For another, you only have to see the success of Charlie Brown to see it's all about marketing niches, not about introversion and extroversion.

I think "introverted" comics probably would (at a guess) make their money best from selling book collections of their comics and other nice limited edition sorts of things. If there is a market/readership... people will buy stuff as long as it appeals to them, surely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The really rubbish thing about this whole stupid micropayment argument is that no-one EVER asks the readers what they want or can afford.</p>
<p>I am a poor student. I have no credit card. How the hell can I, or any of the other hundreds of thousands of students who read webcomics, pay for micropayments? When I have a job next year, I will buy merchandise&#8230; clearly I will be rewarding the webcomic artists who have invested in my entertainment over the years, and not those who locked up their content in an unusable, unfriendly elitist format.</p>
<p>Yes, that&#8217;s right. Micropayments are ELITIST. They alienate the very people who are the core of readership.</p>
<p>And if you&#8217;re only catering to this tiny core of rich bitches with credit cards then how in the hell do you get your comic to get that critical mass necessary for your comic to be successful?</p>
<p>Micropayments are a joke.</p>
<p>Actually, that whole introverted/extroverted dichotomy is a bit bollocks too. For one thing, he&#8217;s quite incorrectly identified some comics on the spectrum. For another, you only have to see the success of Charlie Brown to see it&#8217;s all about marketing niches, not about introversion and extroversion.</p>
<p>I think &#8220;introverted&#8221; comics probably would (at a guess) make their money best from selling book collections of their comics and other nice limited edition sorts of things. If there is a market/readership&#8230; people will buy stuff as long as it appeals to them, surely?</p>
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		<title>By: Flip Constantine</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-983</link>
		<dc:creator>Flip Constantine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 23:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-983</guid>
		<description>I've got a great idea for a feasible payment plan for online comics!

Give the t-shirts away for free, and then charge for the comic!  People will pay it if they want to get the joke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got a great idea for a feasible payment plan for online comics!</p>
<p>Give the t-shirts away for free, and then charge for the comic!  People will pay it if they want to get the joke.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-982</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-982</guid>
		<description>I have some real world experience with making computer technology work, which gives me some confidence that a micropayments technology could be designed to avoid the Chinese water torture Ms. Campos envisions.  A good software engineer can identify the minimal information needed from the user, with an understanding of how people would use the software (which is why first versions tend to suck).  I observe that we read webcomics in streams, with frequencies in days or seconds, so I would design a micropayments system to prefer input at the beginning or end of these streams.

But I don't mean to front for McCloud or Zabel, saying "don't worry, we'll make it work alright", because I'm not convinced that micropayments are the best or the only technology to support webcomics.  I recognize that many artists may have legitimate needs for income aside from the costs of their web servers.  However I also note many artists who wouldn't put out tip jars and the like if the cost of their popularity hadn't forced their hand.  I feel as well that people ought not to be compelled to create a business if a business isn't what they had in mind.

I personally see the fault in HTTP and, more deeply, the 'dumb middle' assumptions of Internet protocols.  There exist valuable advantages of scaling &#38; abstraction for the dumb middle, the principle that the smarts of an protocol are put into the ends of any conversation rather than in the medium inbetween.  Living with this strategy helps if both ends are 'smart enough' to carry their conversations.  In the good ol' days, if you were online you were a member of an institution or company with smart resources to spare, and amateur initiatives would subsist on their leftovers.

I'd like to see us develop a distributed file system in place of HTTP.  Rather than the smarts of rented web servers, this technology would use the P2P smarts of the many computers sharing this new file system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have some real world experience with making computer technology work, which gives me some confidence that a micropayments technology could be designed to avoid the Chinese water torture Ms. Campos envisions.  A good software engineer can identify the minimal information needed from the user, with an understanding of how people would use the software (which is why first versions tend to suck).  I observe that we read webcomics in streams, with frequencies in days or seconds, so I would design a micropayments system to prefer input at the beginning or end of these streams.</p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t mean to front for McCloud or Zabel, saying &#8220;don&#8217;t worry, we&#8217;ll make it work alright&#8221;, because I&#8217;m not convinced that micropayments are the best or the only technology to support webcomics.  I recognize that many artists may have legitimate needs for income aside from the costs of their web servers.  However I also note many artists who wouldn&#8217;t put out tip jars and the like if the cost of their popularity hadn&#8217;t forced their hand.  I feel as well that people ought not to be compelled to create a business if a business isn&#8217;t what they had in mind.</p>
<p>I personally see the fault in HTTP and, more deeply, the &#8216;dumb middle&#8217; assumptions of Internet protocols.  There exist valuable advantages of scaling &amp; abstraction for the dumb middle, the principle that the smarts of an protocol are put into the ends of any conversation rather than in the medium inbetween.  Living with this strategy helps if both ends are &#8217;smart enough&#8217; to carry their conversations.  In the good ol&#8217; days, if you were online you were a member of an institution or company with smart resources to spare, and amateur initiatives would subsist on their leftovers.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to see us develop a distributed file system in place of HTTP.  Rather than the smarts of rented web servers, this technology would use the P2P smarts of the many computers sharing this new file system.</p>
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		<title>By: Merus</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-962</link>
		<dc:creator>Merus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 05:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-962</guid>
		<description>Wait, hang on.

I'm pretty sure Joyce and Walky runs on micropayments. I paid a small amount of money and got some comics. It worked out to about US25c a comic.

I fully agree that wishing that micropayments will just come along and solve everything will not make micropayments come along and solve everything, but on the other hand something very like micropayments is already being done. No moratorium is necessary because the debate is probably over by now, and the only people left are the people who only want micropayments &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt; way, with some seperate provider and automated systems and all that shit which won't ever come about until Paypal stops working for people. To my mind, there's only about three or so of those people left.

I'm Merus, and I've made micropayments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, hang on.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure Joyce and Walky runs on micropayments. I paid a small amount of money and got some comics. It worked out to about US25c a comic.</p>
<p>I fully agree that wishing that micropayments will just come along and solve everything will not make micropayments come along and solve everything, but on the other hand something very like micropayments is already being done. No moratorium is necessary because the debate is probably over by now, and the only people left are the people who only want micropayments <i>this</i> way, with some seperate provider and automated systems and all that shit which won&#8217;t ever come about until Paypal stops working for people. To my mind, there&#8217;s only about three or so of those people left.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m Merus, and I&#8217;ve made micropayments.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Myth</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-950</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Myth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-950</guid>
		<description>I think Micropayments is a potentially workable process that is really going to have difficulty finding its place in the current webcomics environment. It is hard to make it work without already establishing a fanbase, and without a fanbase...

Well, there are thousands of webcomics out there these days, most of them available for free. With so much free content already present, it will make it a lot harder for any payment system to win any ground in the fray.

I certainly agree that micropayments don't need to be looked down upon without reason; I just think that there are legitimate reasons to be doubtful of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Micropayments is a potentially workable process that is really going to have difficulty finding its place in the current webcomics environment. It is hard to make it work without already establishing a fanbase, and without a fanbase&#8230;</p>
<p>Well, there are thousands of webcomics out there these days, most of them available for free. With so much free content already present, it will make it a lot harder for any payment system to win any ground in the fray.</p>
<p>I certainly agree that micropayments don&#8217;t need to be looked down upon without reason; I just think that there are legitimate reasons to be doubtful of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Tyrrell</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/03/08/really-not-trying-to-stir-up-anything-this-time-honest/#comment-949</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Tyrrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=170#comment-949</guid>
		<description>Ray,

Hell, I'm an engineer at heart -- approximation is what we do. While undoubtedly you and I could draw three beer-mats worth of scribbles and understand each other perfectly, the translation of &lt;em&gt;nerd&lt;/em&gt; into the vernacular is space-consuming (thus, hundreds of pages of abandoned thesis, where the &lt;em&gt;engineer&lt;/em&gt; had to be translated for the historians, and the &lt;em&gt;historian&lt;/em&gt; for the engineers, none of which should be inflicted on the readers of these silly little essays).

My apologies if you think I oversimplified anything to the point of misrepresentation. And tell BobsBancCorp of South Dakota that they're a bunch of usurious bastards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray,</p>
<p>Hell, I&#8217;m an engineer at heart &#8212; approximation is what we do. While undoubtedly you and I could draw three beer-mats worth of scribbles and understand each other perfectly, the translation of <em>nerd</em> into the vernacular is space-consuming (thus, hundreds of pages of abandoned thesis, where the <em>engineer</em> had to be translated for the historians, and the <em>historian</em> for the engineers, none of which should be inflicted on the readers of these silly little essays).</p>
<p>My apologies if you think I oversimplified anything to the point of misrepresentation. And tell BobsBancCorp of South Dakota that they&#8217;re a bunch of usurious bastards.</p>
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