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	<title>Comments on: Help a Girl Out</title>
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	<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/</link>
	<description>the webcomics blog about webcomics</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Fleen: Written by bitter, haggard wordbeasts &#187; Semi-Syndication, Take Two</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-45091</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleen: Written by bitter, haggard wordbeasts &#187; Semi-Syndication, Take Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 01:00:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-45091</guid>
		<description>[...] Fleen will be continuing the discussion on [semi-]syndication, as Baldwin has graciously agreed to an interview on this very topic; watch for it shortly. In the meantime, since we all know that nothing brings eyeballs like controversy, let us all hope that Messers Baldwin and Kellett violently disagree about everything, giving Fleen the opportunity to sponsor the first San Diego Comic-Con Steel Cage Deathmatch (with the winner taking on Bil Keane, who will in all likelihood hand the youngster his ass). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Fleen will be continuing the discussion on [semi-]syndication, as Baldwin has graciously agreed to an interview on this very topic; watch for it shortly. In the meantime, since we all know that nothing brings eyeballs like controversy, let us all hope that Messers Baldwin and Kellett violently disagree about everything, giving Fleen the opportunity to sponsor the first San Diego Comic-Con Steel Cage Deathmatch (with the winner taking on Bil Keane, who will in all likelihood hand the youngster his ass). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fleen: Written by bitter, haggard wordbeasts &#187; In Which I Make an Observation and Expect to be Inundated By Comments Telling Me I&#8217;m a Simpleton</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-4627</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleen: Written by bitter, haggard wordbeasts &#187; In Which I Make an Observation and Expect to be Inundated By Comments Telling Me I&#8217;m a Simpleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 03:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-4627</guid>
		<description>[...] Uncategorized   Okay, so weâ€™ve already established that the twenty webcomics I read on a weekly basis do not constitute a good statistical sample. And Iâ€™ve talked about update schedules â€“ both when to update and what happens when theyâ€™re not met. I guess this is the next in the continuing series of me talking about the methodology of webcomics and the readers who are creators weighing in. Really, I&#8217;m just feeling my way around in the dark. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Uncategorized   Okay, so weâ€™ve already established that the twenty webcomics I read on a weekly basis do not constitute a good statistical sample. And Iâ€™ve talked about update schedules â€“ both when to update and what happens when theyâ€™re not met. I guess this is the next in the continuing series of me talking about the methodology of webcomics and the readers who are creators weighing in. Really, I&#8217;m just feeling my way around in the dark. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: kirabug</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3269</link>
		<dc:creator>kirabug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2006 21:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3269</guid>
		<description>Nic wrote: &lt;blockquote&gt;Kira and you both appear to think that one way to do this is through celebration of the achievements of this apparent minority, but I believe that this singling out is counter-productive, reinforcing the idea that these women are the exception rather than the norm, that women need more attention and help in order to â€˜make itâ€™. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

You know, I used to think the same thing.  Really. I even raised a fuss on Websnark in the comments one time when they were talking about Girl-a-matic and I said I wouldn't want to be associated with a girls-only comic group because I wouldn't want other people to see me as "just a girl". 

But a self-declared feminist asked for more comics written by women. She didn't ask because she was attempting to convince the readers that women were the better comic authors (or even equals) she asked because she wanted to read more women authors, and, having done so, offer others exposure to them. As Jon said, that's not the same as saying their better or worse. 

I ask, if Kate had instead posted a message stating that only 1/5 of her comics were in the "gaming" subgenre, would you have responded, "Why on earth should you be writing about comics just because theyâ€™re created by gamers? "

(To which my answer would still be "because other gamers might be interested".) 

And part of this also goes back to trust in the author. I was willing to give Kate a list of girl-driven comics she might not be reading because I trust she's not going to post every girl-written comic she finds and write about each and every one in the same tone. I expect she's write something intelligent and critical (as in critical-thinking) about each comic &lt;em&gt;she feels has merit&lt;/em&gt; and not just "Look! This one's written by a &lt;em&gt;girl&lt;/em&gt;! And look! She can &lt;em&gt;tie her shoes, too&lt;/em&gt;! But she surely can't post, "Hey, are you reading Dicebox?" if she's never heard of Dicebox. 

(And, off-topic, if you're not reading Dicebox and you like social/plot comics, you should.)

Nic also said: &lt;blockquote&gt;I said that the article was inspired by guilt because of this quote:
I read about 20 comics over the course of the week. And of those, five of them are created by women.

To which my kneejerk response was, and still is, â€œSo what?â€?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If you said, "I read twenty comics a week, and of those only five are about &lt;a href="http://www.shortpacked.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;toys and I want to give toy comics more exposure so suggest some to me", I'm not sure I'd feel your request was guilt-motivated. I'd say there are outside influences coloring your perspective of the article - which, of course, is true of all of us. 

It's just, y'know, it's not a lose-lose to everyone. That's all.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nic wrote:<br />
<blockquote>Kira and you both appear to think that one way to do this is through celebration of the achievements of this apparent minority, but I believe that this singling out is counter-productive, reinforcing the idea that these women are the exception rather than the norm, that women need more attention and help in order to â€˜make itâ€™. </p></blockquote>
<p>You know, I used to think the same thing.  Really. I even raised a fuss on Websnark in the comments one time when they were talking about Girl-a-matic and I said I wouldn&#8217;t want to be associated with a girls-only comic group because I wouldn&#8217;t want other people to see me as &#8220;just a girl&#8221;. </p>
<p>But a self-declared feminist asked for more comics written by women. She didn&#8217;t ask because she was attempting to convince the readers that women were the better comic authors (or even equals) she asked because she wanted to read more women authors, and, having done so, offer others exposure to them. As Jon said, that&#8217;s not the same as saying their better or worse. </p>
<p>I ask, if Kate had instead posted a message stating that only 1/5 of her comics were in the &#8220;gaming&#8221; subgenre, would you have responded, &#8220;Why on earth should you be writing about comics just because theyâ€™re created by gamers? &#8221;</p>
<p>(To which my answer would still be &#8220;because other gamers might be interested&#8221;.) </p>
<p>And part of this also goes back to trust in the author. I was willing to give Kate a list of girl-driven comics she might not be reading because I trust she&#8217;s not going to post every girl-written comic she finds and write about each and every one in the same tone. I expect she&#8217;s write something intelligent and critical (as in critical-thinking) about each comic <em>she feels has merit</em> and not just &#8220;Look! This one&#8217;s written by a <em>girl</em>! And look! She can <em>tie her shoes, too</em>! But she surely can&#8217;t post, &#8220;Hey, are you reading Dicebox?&#8221; if she&#8217;s never heard of Dicebox. </p>
<p>(And, off-topic, if you&#8217;re not reading Dicebox and you like social/plot comics, you should.)</p>
<p>Nic also said:<br />
<blockquote>I said that the article was inspired by guilt because of this quote:<br />
I read about 20 comics over the course of the week. And of those, five of them are created by women.</p>
<p>To which my kneejerk response was, and still is, â€œSo what?â€?</p></blockquote>
<p>If you said, &#8220;I read twenty comics a week, and of those only five are about <a href="http://www.shortpacked.com" rel="nofollow">toys and I want to give toy comics more exposure so suggest some to me&#8221;, I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;d feel your request was guilt-motivated. I&#8217;d say there are outside influences coloring your perspective of the article - which, of course, is true of all of us. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just, y&#8217;know, it&#8217;s not a lose-lose to everyone. That&#8217;s all.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jon (not Rosenberg)</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3257</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon (not Rosenberg)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 May 2006 08:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3257</guid>
		<description>Once again, highlighting good work by women is not the same as 'look at my comic because I'm a gurrrl'.  You seem convinced that any operators outside of merit means that the selection is of work that can't get recognized on merit.  Going purely on merit is a great idea, except that the world doesn't really operate purely on merit, and good work does get excluded based on other factors.  You acknowledge the institutional prejudices, but say that the best way to combat them is to ignore them?  In my experience pretending problems don't exist isn't the most effective way of solving them.  If the deck is stacked against you, you do need more help to make it.  That's not because of any deficiancy, it's because the institutionalized prejudices are actively working against you.  Calling out bigotry is not enabling bigotry.  The unacknoledged prejudice is the own which lasts the longest.

And of course, the point was that 3/4 of well-known comics are created by men.  The quality of being well-known not necessarily having anything to do with merit, the reasonable question was asked, 'Can you suggest any others?  Cause I may be in a position to affect their exposure.'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, highlighting good work by women is not the same as &#8216;look at my comic because I&#8217;m a gurrrl&#8217;.  You seem convinced that any operators outside of merit means that the selection is of work that can&#8217;t get recognized on merit.  Going purely on merit is a great idea, except that the world doesn&#8217;t really operate purely on merit, and good work does get excluded based on other factors.  You acknowledge the institutional prejudices, but say that the best way to combat them is to ignore them?  In my experience pretending problems don&#8217;t exist isn&#8217;t the most effective way of solving them.  If the deck is stacked against you, you do need more help to make it.  That&#8217;s not because of any deficiancy, it&#8217;s because the institutionalized prejudices are actively working against you.  Calling out bigotry is not enabling bigotry.  The unacknoledged prejudice is the own which lasts the longest.</p>
<p>And of course, the point was that 3/4 of well-known comics are created by men.  The quality of being well-known not necessarily having anything to do with merit, the reasonable question was asked, &#8216;Can you suggest any others?  Cause I may be in a position to affect their exposure.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Nic</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3216</link>
		<dc:creator>Nic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 May 2006 05:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3216</guid>
		<description>Lazy? No, lazy is "Hey, look at my comic because I'm a gurrrrrl." And I feel no compulsion to erase differences between people, I just wish the superficial ones didn't matter so much. If a webcomic artist wants to promote themselves rather than their comic, whether that be by gender, race, or wearing silly hats and smoking a pipe, then that's their prerogative. However I personally resent being forcibly grouped by any characteristic I don't choose to be grouped by, especially one I see as being completely tangential to merit. 
 
 Kira suggested that it was interesting to divide comics by gender because it offered a different perspective. I disagree, not because I am against 'different perspectives', but because I believe a) the perspective offered by someone being purely of a particular gender is not sufficient, on its own, to tell me whether I will find the comic funny, interesting or well-drawn, and b) such a division serves to artificially segregate and divide the audience. I spoke briefly of prejudice, and you said yourself that comics are a traditionally male-dominated area, which implies to me a tacit agreement with the idea that we have not levelled the playing field as yet. Kira and you both appear to think that one way to do this is through celebration of the achievements of this apparent minority, but I believe that this singling out is counter-productive, reinforcing the idea that these women are the exception rather than the norm, that women need more attention and help in order to 'make it'. The world &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; full of various institutionalised prejudices - why should we make it easier for people to act upon them? 
 
 I said that the article was inspired by guilt because of this quote:  
 &lt;i&gt;I read about 20 comics over the course of the week. And of those, five of them are created by women.&lt;/i&gt;
 
 To which my kneejerk response was, and still is, "So what?"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lazy? No, lazy is &#8220;Hey, look at my comic because I&#8217;m a gurrrrrl.&#8221; And I feel no compulsion to erase differences between people, I just wish the superficial ones didn&#8217;t matter so much. If a webcomic artist wants to promote themselves rather than their comic, whether that be by gender, race, or wearing silly hats and smoking a pipe, then that&#8217;s their prerogative. However I personally resent being forcibly grouped by any characteristic I don&#8217;t choose to be grouped by, especially one I see as being completely tangential to merit. </p>
<p> Kira suggested that it was interesting to divide comics by gender because it offered a different perspective. I disagree, not because I am against &#8216;different perspectives&#8217;, but because I believe a) the perspective offered by someone being purely of a particular gender is not sufficient, on its own, to tell me whether I will find the comic funny, interesting or well-drawn, and b) such a division serves to artificially segregate and divide the audience. I spoke briefly of prejudice, and you said yourself that comics are a traditionally male-dominated area, which implies to me a tacit agreement with the idea that we have not levelled the playing field as yet. Kira and you both appear to think that one way to do this is through celebration of the achievements of this apparent minority, but I believe that this singling out is counter-productive, reinforcing the idea that these women are the exception rather than the norm, that women need more attention and help in order to &#8216;make it&#8217;. The world <i>is</i> full of various institutionalised prejudices - why should we make it easier for people to act upon them? </p>
<p> I said that the article was inspired by guilt because of this quote:<br />
 <i>I read about 20 comics over the course of the week. And of those, five of them are created by women.</i></p>
<p> To which my kneejerk response was, and still is, &#8220;So what?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jon (not Rosenberg)</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3206</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon (not Rosenberg)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 May 2006 03:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3206</guid>
		<description>Sorry Nic, I mistook your target.  Though I have to say I don't really see how the article was inspired by guilt (although it is true that most of my guilt-driven activities involve women, but I don't think my mother counts here).  The entire line of reasoning eludes me, and I would appreciate an explanation (of course your time is limited, so I understand if you've other obligations).  

The comics business is traditionally a male thing.  Highlighting those who are changing that isn't a bad thing, nor is it somehow guilt-driven.  And of course there are numerous other reasons, as helpfully highlighted above.  Of course, it all comes down to viewpoint.  There are those who think that the world is full of various institutionalized prejudices, overt and hidden (depends where in the world you are); and there are those who think that's an argument used by those who can't make it on their own.  Wonder how law students come down on this issue?

Also, the tool doesn't erradicate difference so much as transform everyone into middle-class white males.  And why would you want to erase difference anyway?  Hiding from issues seems like the lazier path to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Nic, I mistook your target.  Though I have to say I don&#8217;t really see how the article was inspired by guilt (although it is true that most of my guilt-driven activities involve women, but I don&#8217;t think my mother counts here).  The entire line of reasoning eludes me, and I would appreciate an explanation (of course your time is limited, so I understand if you&#8217;ve other obligations).  </p>
<p>The comics business is traditionally a male thing.  Highlighting those who are changing that isn&#8217;t a bad thing, nor is it somehow guilt-driven.  And of course there are numerous other reasons, as helpfully highlighted above.  Of course, it all comes down to viewpoint.  There are those who think that the world is full of various institutionalized prejudices, overt and hidden (depends where in the world you are); and there are those who think that&#8217;s an argument used by those who can&#8217;t make it on their own.  Wonder how law students come down on this issue?</p>
<p>Also, the tool doesn&#8217;t erradicate difference so much as transform everyone into middle-class white males.  And why would you want to erase difference anyway?  Hiding from issues seems like the lazier path to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Antdevamp</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3169</link>
		<dc:creator>Antdevamp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2006 21:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3169</guid>
		<description>Okaypants!

I am a fellow who only finds comics by women an enhancement to a otherwise boring life!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okaypants!</p>
<p>I am a fellow who only finds comics by women an enhancement to a otherwise boring life!</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Myth</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3157</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Myth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2006 19:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3157</guid>
		<description>While I'm not entirely sure I agree with the logic here, &lt;a href="http://www.panel2panel.com/ns-index.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;No Stereotypes&lt;/a&gt; is another one for the list I didn't see mentioned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I&#8217;m not entirely sure I agree with the logic here, <a href="http://www.panel2panel.com/ns-index.html" rel="nofollow">No Stereotypes</a> is another one for the list I didn&#8217;t see mentioned.</p>
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		<title>By: kirabug</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3155</link>
		<dc:creator>kirabug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2006 19:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3155</guid>
		<description>Oh for heaven's sake. Y'all need to chill. 

Has it occurred to any of you who are objecting to or defending the honor of female comic creators that maybe we'd like to hear about each other -- not because we "gots boobs" -- but just because we want to find comics that share a similarity to ours?

Men write from a different perspective than women. (Duh.) So different things may happen in a comic written by women than it does in a comic written by men. So why wouldn't we want to share those links for that reason?

I say if someone had written a post asking for all the comic authors influenced by Chuck Jones, nobody'd divide into Pro-Bugs-Bunny-Support and Comics-Are-Comics-Chuck-Jones-Was-Nothin'-Special camps. 

So why should it be different when someone asks for comics in the subgenre of "created by chicks"?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh for heaven&#8217;s sake. Y&#8217;all need to chill. </p>
<p>Has it occurred to any of you who are objecting to or defending the honor of female comic creators that maybe we&#8217;d like to hear about each other &#8212; not because we &#8220;gots boobs&#8221; &#8212; but just because we want to find comics that share a similarity to ours?</p>
<p>Men write from a different perspective than women. (Duh.) So different things may happen in a comic written by women than it does in a comic written by men. So why wouldn&#8217;t we want to share those links for that reason?</p>
<p>I say if someone had written a post asking for all the comic authors influenced by Chuck Jones, nobody&#8217;d divide into Pro-Bugs-Bunny-Support and Comics-Are-Comics-Chuck-Jones-Was-Nothin&#8217;-Special camps. </p>
<p>So why should it be different when someone asks for comics in the subgenre of &#8220;created by chicks&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3152</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2006 19:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2006/05/25/help-a-girl-out/#comment-3152</guid>
		<description>God I hate the word 'gender'(outside of grammatical usage of course).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God I hate the word &#8216;gender&#8217;(outside of grammatical usage of course).</p>
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