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Shishio has pointed us towards a forum topic at Comic Genesis (nee ~~Keenspot~~ Keenspace), that quite frankly has me puzzled. Shishio’s post in turn points to another by Matt Johnson at the Cornstalker forums. See what you can make of this:

To be honest, I’d like to see more comic artists willing to be active participants in the webcomic community. Maybe it’s just me, but there seem to be far too many people who have no interest in any other other comics online other than their own. And on the rare occasion they do show interest in others in the community, it’s in the context of asking for a critique, for a guest comic, an artist to draw for them, or an announcement like, “Hey, come look at my comic! I just finished chapter 13!” I know I’m a broken record on this subject, but the best part of doing a web comic is meeting all the cool people around here and learning from them. If you miss out on that, you’re pretty much missing out on everything that makes having a web comic so much fun.

I’m not sure it’s the issue that Johnson thinks it is (although there are differing views on what the ‘webcomics community’ actually is), but just in case Shishio tells us:

I agree that webcomic creators need to work harder to make webcomics as a whole more successful. And so I have launched The Webcomic Word of Mouth Project, the idea of which is to get webcomic creators to pledge to link to other webcomics they like which will hopefully increase everybody’s readers.

Maybe I’m reading the wrong webcomics, but I just did a quick scan of my trawl list, and discovered two things:

Pretty much every creator has between 10 and 20 links to other webcomics; granted, some of those links are going to be to collective-mates, but how do you explain Ryan North linking to 36 different strips? Okay, Penny Arcade doesn’t maintain regular links, but if they did, it could be construed as an act of aggression against your server.
Everybody links Achewood. It must be like a law or something.

I don’t think this is going to make much difference with established creators, but if you’re just starting out, the WOMP page adds:

I also invite you to sign up on the forum, where you can discuss webcomics, get critiques, assistance, look for collabarators, and of course, promote your own webcomic so that other creators might enjoy and link to it.

I think it’ll be a while before this one develops into anything significant, but then again: tiny seeds, mighty oaks, etc. See you on Monday.

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I know Iâ€™m a broken record on this subject, but the best part of doing a web comic is meeting all the cool people around here and learning from them. If you miss out on that, youâ€™re pretty much missing out on everything that makes having a web comic so much fun.

To me, the best part of doing a webcomic is being able to say exactly what I want to say in the exact way that I want to say, and to get people to laugh when I do it. Of course I’m a cantankerous old man, and when I started there wasn’t much of a community to speak of, so I suppose I can be excused for going off-message.

But I suppose my main gripe with this attitude is that 9 times out of 10 it turns out to be facade for yet another attempt by someone to mold “Webcomics” as a whole into the Thing That Webcomics Were Meant To Be, which is usually only a very small subset of what webcomics actually is, which I find usually misses the point of a medium with so few barriers to entry.

Which doesn’t meant that Matt is one of those people with a sinister purpose hiding behind his words — it just means I get suspicious when I hear them. I suppose I need to add “paranoid” along side “cantankerous.”

sure wish there was an edit function, since “what webcomics actually is” suffers from mispluralized grammatical nonsensery.

Yeah, I don’t do a webcomic do be a part of a community. I do it because I love drawing and writing. Do people say these things about comic book artists? Just because having you post your comic on the Internet doesn’t mean you have to be plugged in to a “community”. Some of us are reclusive hermits, and intend to stay that way!

I’ve always pretty much relied on word-of-mouth. There are some notable exceptions to that policy, e.g. when I joined the Daily Grind, to which I attribute that Eric Burns reads me, which has resulted in snarkage. On the other hand, of the – I dunno – fifty webcomics I link, perhaps three link back to me. But by and large word-of-mouth’s what I rely on, and by and large it seems to be working because my monthly unique hits trend up. I wish there were more webcartoonists in Nebraska, though, and I know Matt does too.

Hell, maybe that’s my problem. Stupid hermit gene.

If I’m doing something that is similar to what other artists are doing, am I therefore obliged to band with them? I just like making my comic and posting it on the web. Beyond reading the news on this website, I don’t really care about webcomics as a whole. Does this make me a bad person?

We can be in the Bad Person Club, Michael! We’ll skin puppies alive, vote Republican, and keep to ourselves on the Internet until we pass out from contentment.

Can we co-author a visionary book about webcomics hermits called Understanding Jerks?

Anyone with a post count on the Dumbrella forums that is as high as yours, Mr. Southworth, is not keeping to themselves on the Internet.

I should know.

And even aside from the issue of whether one artist should be arbitrarily obligated to link to another… as you point out, most do anyway.

Not only do many sites have links to other comics, but I also see webcomic authors writing blog entries about other comics they enjoy, all the time.

Now, that said – I don’t think this is in and-of-itself a bad idea. Having a place for people to go to whenever they want to find a new comic is a nice resource, especially one propelled by a community rather than a single individual. Having discussion built into the system (due to being a forum) is another nice touch – and maybe the only thing that will help keep it distinct from a lot of the other online comics listings out there.

In any case, I wish it whatever success it can find – it might not be quite as needed as it thinks it is, but it certainly has a good bit of positive potential.

The Webcomic Word of Mouth project seems inherently doomed to me. I assume the participants are desperate for readers, otherwise they’d have little reason participate. So it’s an incestuous pool of webcomics with small audiences linking to other webcomics with small audiences, resulting in negligible readership gains overall.

I’m just not on the same page as the up-with-Webcomics crowd. I DON’T buy into the idea that a rising tide lifts all boats (or whatever the saying is). Being exposed to a great comic like Achewood does not make me want to become a regular reader of the latest Keenspot abortion. It’s the individual comics that matter. And the successful ones seem to make it on their own merits.

What surprises me is how often webcomic creators seek audiences within the “webcomics community.” If you provide a legitimately good form of entertainment, wouldn’t you want to bring it to a broader demographic? (I don’t know. Maybe people do and I don’t realize it.)

My own struggle with finding an audience probably delegitmizes everything I’ve said.

Touche, Mr. Lowrey. TOUCHE.

But I don’t think of Dumbrella as a comic forum. I think of it a place to screw off when I should be working.

I find that I’m not really interested in posting in the forums of other comics because, if I did so with all the comics I like, I’d never get anything done. I just like to sit back and appreciate.

Let me clarify that (stupid no edit button): As a comic creator myself, I don’t feel the urge to go and talk about other comics. I’ll link to the comics I like, certainly, but as far as making a concerted effort to be part of the “community”? Eh. I post at Dumbrella because I like the people there, not the comics (though I DO like the comics), and the comics themselves are seldom discussed.

For example: I like PvP, but you won’t catch me posting more than once in a while in the forums. That place is SCARY.

Count me in as a member of the anti-webcomic-community community. Hey, wait a second…

Community? There’s a web comic community? News to me.

What surprises me is how often webcomic creators seek audiences within the â€œwebcomics community.â€? If you provide a legitimately good form of entertainment, wouldnâ€™t you want to bring it to a broader demographic? (I donâ€™t know. Maybe people do and I donâ€™t realize it.)

My guess is that creators are hoping to reach a larger pool of readers by seeking the attention of a more involved “community” who casual comic fans might pay undue attention to; there may be the assumption that an involved community might help one’s own comic to reach a “Tipping Point” more than an average group of readers might.

I don’t have much time online at the moment, so to be brief:

I know most, if not all webcomics, maintain regular links pages, but more readers will visit a link given in a news post than one on a links page.

The idea is simply to get webcomic creators to link to at least one other webcomic in every news post/rant/whatever they make.

It’s just a simple idea, not overly ambitious or anything. If you think it’s a stupid idea, I apologize for bringing it up, but you are free to ignore it.

I linked to the post I made on the CG forums simply because I know I have to use HTML on Fleen and I just didn’t want to retype my post. My apologies for any confusion.

Back in 2001, when Fleen was a collective and all the big names are there and all the small fry can fit in an IRC chat room, I was part of the community. There were two forums and one chat room to keep track of. Awesome.

But now, even maintaining a presence on one forum takes way too much time. There’s just simply SO MUCH STUFF and so many people. Probably a good thing for the Internets, but I’d rather make comics instead of spending all that time trying to keep up with this huge social sphere—reading Fleen and Tangents is community enough for me.

I believe that should be “nÃ©e KeenSPACE”.

(And this is exactly why we changed the name.)

The webcomics community is what you make of it. That’s the true meaning of webcomics, Charlie Brown.

1) KeenSPACE and KeenSPOT are two related-but-different entities, as Chris Crosby points out.

2) The thing I don’t like about webcomics self-promo is that it’s usually creators of comics that are 2 months old plugging their never-updating MS Paint comic and their cafepress t-shirts. For the moment, I’ve decided I’m not actively promoting my comic anymore. I’ll just keep drawing it five days a week, and eventually people will drop by. Or Eric Burns will read it and write a thesis and crash my website with huge readership numbers who buy t-shirts. Not that I sell them.

Wing: even maintaining a presence on one forum takes way too much time.

I think this is the nub of the matter. Essentially, you can talk about webcomics, or you can create webcomics, but it’s damn hard to find the time to do both.

^ Agreed!

Let’s not forget that some of us also have fairly extensive READING lists as well as drawing! Plus, actual JOBS.

Community? Thereâ€™s a web comic community? News to me.

In as much as New York City is a community, yeah.

It’s very easy to have the time to both talk about webcomics and make them.

Just do neither well.

There’s nothing wrong with this idea. Linking a strip in a newspost is a Good Thing, and not just for altruistic reasons. Forming relationships with other artists can be extremely beneficial, and often a link from a newspost is the best sort of icebreaker.

That said, if anyone complains to me that I am not posting enough links or not posting links to the right places, I will be happy to cram a hamster in their eye socket.

I donâ€™t really care about webcomics as a whole. Does this make me a bad person?

No, it certainly does not make you a bad person. But it makes you shortsighted if you are trying to grow your webcomic.

Got me there. I stopped drawing webcomics that are fanfiction of tv shows* and started drawing webcomics that are fanfiction about King Arthur, and that’s pretty much why. William G. says webcomics need to go mainstream and none of us seem to have any idea how to do it**; well, maybe I don’t, but I’m doing my best by drawing one I hope most non-geeks can follow, at least most days.

But I still value the “webcomics community” (I’ve begun preferring the term webcomics culture) because there’s just a quality about people who think in panels like I do that I’ve never found in other people.

* For values of “stop drawing” equal to “drawing irregularly rather than daily”.

** A gross oversimplification of his argument.

No, it certainly does not make you a bad person. But it makes you shortsighted if you are trying to grow your webcomic.

It just seems to me that in the webcomics community, the people with the biggest mouths or the largest audiences tend to position themselves as the experts, and like to speak on everyone else’s behalf. I don’t like shouting above the din in order to be heard, so instead I just keep my distance from the crowd. If that means that I’ll never achieve success in webcomcs, then I’m fine with that. I don’t like selling T-shirts anyway.

I believe that should be â€œnÃ©e KeenSPACEâ€?.

D’oh. I knew that. I KNEW that. Corrected, and Fleen apologizes for the error.

Thanks, no worries!

I’m not convinced there’s a webcomics “community” as such. It’s more like several interconnected city-states. Some are big, some are small. Small are open, some are insular. Some are thriving, and some are dead and gone.

Personally, I’ve enjoyed talking to individuals more than the community, and I use that same attitude when linking to people. If anyone wants to show me his/her comic, I’ll read it. If I like it, or think it’s something my readers would like, I link it. It’s not community service, it’s just appreciation for an individual person taking the time and having the nerve to show something to a fellow cartoonist.

I don’t need to sign up for some club to link to people, nor do I want to. It’s just a silly waste of space that won’t change anything for anyone. If anybody out there wants me to link him, all he have to do is make a decent comic and send me an email.

Now, as for webcomics going mainstream – here is The Apocalypse of Weiner: You will know that webcomics are mainstream when the top 95% of webcomics aren’t of one or more of the following three categories: Manga, Sci Fi/Fantasy, Gamer.

From this point of view, I consider sites like Keenspot, Dumbrella, and to a certain extent Blank Label to be where the ultimate future of webcomics is – comics that are broad, but well written, designed for a coming generation of people who get much of their entertainment throught the Internet.

Yeah.

I feel like I need to chime in as one of these new upstarts. I started this as a hobby, like most hobbies, some people are content to go it alone while others find like minded groups.

I think community implies too much of an organized framework. There are like minded groups that help each other out and may meet at cons, but this is not for everyone, nor do I think groups of cranky web artists are going to change much. I took the forums off my site due to the general lunacy that seems to afflicts most internet users.

I’m not in this to make money or be famous on the internet, again its a hobby and I want to tell stories. My art is rough, and updates are sproadic, but I maintain that if I do work I enjoy, others may enjoy it too.

I donâ€™t like shouting above the din in order to be heard, so instead I just keep my distance from the crowd. If that means that Iâ€™ll never achieve success in webcomcs, then Iâ€™m fine with that.

And yet, here you are, having a discussion with lots of other creators, each with their own opinion, no one trying to should anyone else down or claim that they are the font of ultimate knowledge.

And here we are, benefitting from what you have to say.

Argh. That should have said “shout”, not “should”.

So about that edit function…

With currently 35 posts and a loose discussion, is this comment thread a community? Yikes.

Yeah, I realize that I’m contradicting myself here, because lately I have been speaking my mind a little bit more than I usually do. I suppose my negative attitude just stems from all the drama and the bickering that occasionally erupt in webcomics circles, and a desire not to get caught up in that. I’ve always been more comfortable interacting with people on an individual basis, than in the context of a group dynamic. But then before I realize it, here I am, interacting with a group anyway.

Yeah, what the hell is this dude talking about? Webcomics that don’t link to other webcomics is the exception, not the norm. Thank you, internet. Thank you for giving stupid people a soap box.

I think the problem (not that I think there is one. You’re under no obligation to link a fucking thing) is not a lack of links.

It’s what is being linked. Penny Arcade, Achewood, everything on Dumbrella, these comics need links like a swamp needs water. But something like Theodore Possum would benefit more.

You know: A millionaire finds a dollar he doesn’t care, but a bum finds it and it’s a great day. Not saying Ed Grugg is a bum, but you know what I mean.

Hell, this even extends to the comics that are blogged about. I knew I wasn’t to far from disconnecting my modem after seeing the 100th blog post about that Achewood fight storyline.

However, to make it worthwhile, webcomics would have to be sought out, and links would have to be updated regularly, and I don’t know who has the time or interest in doing that.

I’ve terminated the project. (If you could even call it a project.)

I apologize for having ever brought it up.

You’ll never make it as a doctor if your head explodes.

[...] Gary Seriously, what I thought would be a mild discussion of marginal interest turned into a comment-fest (albeit a mostly polite and helpful one). So here’s one that, for all I know, will either drop with a thud, or turn into the Great Flame-Fest of Aught-Six. [...]

Ooh, ooh! I have a unique point of view!

Ok, well not really. Maybe slightly? I started seven years ago (which I wouldn’t have even realized if not for the fleen post about Real Life’s anniversary..) and then left for a few years.

The climate and “community” is definitely different than it was then.

Comics now link to each other, but by and large, one comic links to ten others that are all linking back to it and to the same other ten.

When I decided to come back, I didn’t really tell anyone other than my lj friends list and the people I talked to at Comic Con. I guess that was mostly for my own sake. I wanted to “earn” new readers.. not just get traffic because of the people I knew (assuming they’d even link to it in the first place.)

It’s a much more social group now, which, it kind of always has been, but it’s a different kind of social. Sort of like myspace now is a different sort of social than mirc or ubb boards were.

But chalk me up as another artist who is doing it because I just enjoy it, like to draw and have some stories I’d like to tell. I’m not making any money off the strip right now, and certainly am not getting any “fame”.

The main difference in web comics now, socially or no, is there are just exponentially MORE of them than there were 3, 5, 7 years ago.

Even at the highest point of my strips, I was never very famous or well known. I was a keenspotter, and I was linked by several “popular” strips. But, the art & writing were so-so at best, and I took a lot of hiatuses and just didn’t do strips sometimes.

When I came back I knew I’d have to start from scratch, but I didn’t quite realize how much it’s like pissing in the ocean.

Wow, this post ended up a lot more negative than I intended it to be. I guess I’ll have to join the Comic Jerks club..

A link means nothing this days. You need a *recommendation*. That’s why I stopped having a links page. I simply couldn’t keep up with the maintenance. After a year, half the links were dead.

A recommendation on the other hand, can tell other people why they should be reading The Boy with a Fish Face, or whatever.

Why do we need a community? We make friends, and we badmouth the rest with them. Lots more fun.

Maritza
CRFH.net

Definitely. I get many more visitors from recommendation posts, etc than I ever do from links pages/sections.

I disagree. Recommendations get you a lot of immediate traffic. But, over the course of several months (or years), a little link button will generate a lot more traffic than you’d think. I think the immediate (and hopefully lasting) success of Project Wonderful is a big testament to the strength of little unmentioned linky banners.

So, to sum up…

A recommendation makes you feel loved, and creates a nice sense of community, and we wouldn’t be talking right here if we didn’t have a community (who doesn’t love talking with other creators? no creator I know).

Linky banners are great for increasing your readership slow and steady. True.

Project Wonderful is in fact, wonderful. (Very true. This is gonna change things people)

Amen ;)

My link list is my recommendations list is my reading list. It’s what I use every day instead of bookmarks.

Yeah, I’m agreeing with the guy who said there was no real webcomics community. Couldn’t agree more.

It’s worth pointing out that community does not mean “group of people who all know each other and love to chat it up!” or anything. “Webcomic community” is just a general term to group people involved in webcomics. I don’t think there’s much of a point in debating the use of the term.

well said. I think there are different levels of involvement in the “community”, from those who are in it because they create a webcomic and don’t participate vocally, and those that are more active within the “community” that talk and discuss with other “creators” in forums and news sites like this one or comixpedia, etc.

Just because we’re not sitting in the same room, doesn’t mean there isn’t a community.

I tire of hearing that the webcomics crowd is a closed circle. It’s opening to new people on a regular basis! All you gotta do is make something good that you’re proud of, and stick with it. If not, the most obnoxious forum signature in the world won’t help you, and neither will two dozen LINK MY COMIC emails to creators you don’t know, or link communities like this (sorry).

We’re not ALL jerks! I think. Ryan North is pretty nice?

Tell you what, I’ve on many an occasion contemplated mapping out exactly who links to whom (and other statistical reserch) using my bookmarks as the starting point – but as said sample’s size is quite big (about 500 = around 2% of the grand total I think) (of which I only read about 150 regularily, NB) you’ll have to wait until I’ve taken a few more courses of university level statistics. And maybe graph theory…

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