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	<title>Comments on: Fleen Guest Column: Anne Thalheimer In, &#8220;Closer Than You Might Think&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/</link>
	<description>the webcomics blog about webcomics</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Malki !</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-63048</link>
		<dc:creator>Malki !</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Mar 2007 19:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Pretty much the beginning and end of my argument on the matter is that there are a ton of people out there who don't like comics and &lt;i&gt;there's nothing you can do about that.&lt;/i&gt;  I like comics just fine, and obviously so do most webcomics creators and fans, but webcomics (or web-based entertainment that may occasionally be in the form of comics) &lt;i&gt;also&lt;/i&gt; have a huge potential to reach outside of the niche audience of comics fans.

Obviously many webcomics are very similar to print comics in a lot of respects, and that's fine.  It's just that there are also a lot of us who are more interested  in making "web-based entertainment" than necessarily making comics for the sake of making comics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty much the beginning and end of my argument on the matter is that there are a ton of people out there who don&#8217;t like comics and <i>there&#8217;s nothing you can do about that.</i>  I like comics just fine, and obviously so do most webcomics creators and fans, but webcomics (or web-based entertainment that may occasionally be in the form of comics) <i>also</i> have a huge potential to reach outside of the niche audience of comics fans.</p>
<p>Obviously many webcomics are very similar to print comics in a lot of respects, and that&#8217;s fine.  It&#8217;s just that there are also a lot of us who are more interested  in making &#8220;web-based entertainment&#8221; than necessarily making comics for the sake of making comics.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61979</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hopefully this time I won't butcher the formatting so badly...

Would webcomics have been as important if everyone could get to a well-stocked comic specialty shop?

I actually still think &lt;i&gt;yes&lt;/i&gt;, in part because, as you mention, of their potential for unlimited access (both globally and in terms of time; unlike shops, the internet doesn't close and you don't neccessarily have to leave your house to get online) that (offline) 'zines and minis just don't have as, well, &lt;i&gt;immediately&lt;/i&gt;, even with the rise of online distros. They also seem to be more globally accessible in a way zines and minis can be, but often aren't. (I'm thinking here of language issues in addition to distribution.)  

We're also lucky--we do share an exceedingly good local shop &#38; are not far from another &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; good one (Million Year Picnic).

I think there's also a fair bit of potential cross-pollination between offline minis &#38; zines and webcomics. I read &lt;i&gt;Diesel Sweeties&lt;/i&gt; online, but haven't yet in the newspapers, but I can't wait to see what the new collection's going to look like. I don't know if I'll like it, since I think it's a webcomic so suffused with technology that reading it offline will feel really weird, but I'm interested to find out.

It's true, though, that you don't have to leave your house to get zines &#38; minis. I've always loved getting a zine or a mini in the mail with a note from the person who made it, though there's something sort of similar with webcomics, through email, blogs, etc., (personal vs. private discussion; receiving a private letter/email vs. publicly posting back &#38; forth on a blog.[this suddenly got way more meta than I'd intended]).

(Full disclosure: after weeks of speculation on the topic, I think that reason--knowing, sort of, where your work is going--is why I never fully warmed to the idea of putting my autobio work online and is at the heart of why I don't distro it very widely. That...and the print thing.)

Still, direct market specialty shops  are on the whole, I think, &lt;i&gt;so&lt;/i&gt; much better than when I started buying comics in high school (more geekery!). Part of that's economics in that shops have realized the purchasing market beyond the bags &#38; boards set (I'm generalizing, obviously) and have started revising their stock (and lighting) accordingly. (Neil Gaiman's book about, basically, how to get girls into your comic book store, is sort of where I'm going with this).

On the web, that's not (as much?) an issue. 

It is, however, still surprising to see how mass bookstores dealt with graphic novels and trade paperbacks (and continue to do so). And though I generally agree that the Comics Code Authority did more good for comics than harm in the long-term. But in the (retrospective) short term it seemed pretty horrific; can you imagine having Senate subcommittee hearings on comic books today? (No, wait, it's &lt;i&gt;video games&lt;/i&gt; that are bad! No, wait--&lt;i&gt;violent TV&lt;/i&gt;! No, I meant, &lt;i&gt;rap music&lt;/i&gt;...actually, &lt;i&gt;I&lt;/i&gt; have a &lt;i&gt;much&lt;/i&gt; better suggestion for something for Senate subcommittee review...)

&lt;i&gt;I wonder what would have happened if the CCA had killed EC and its like today; would webcomics fill the role of Zap, Weirdo et al?&lt;/i&gt;

Interesting question! Modern pop culture, obviously, would be so hugely different (think about all the 'comic book movies' for one), though I think counterculture would likely have taken the same arc? I wonder if international works, &lt;i&gt;bande desinee&lt;/i&gt; &#38; such, would then have gained more of a footing in the American market?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully this time I won&#8217;t butcher the formatting so badly&#8230;</p>
<p>Would webcomics have been as important if everyone could get to a well-stocked comic specialty shop?</p>
<p>I actually still think <i>yes</i>, in part because, as you mention, of their potential for unlimited access (both globally and in terms of time; unlike shops, the internet doesn&#8217;t close and you don&#8217;t neccessarily have to leave your house to get online) that (offline) &#8216;zines and minis just don&#8217;t have as, well, <i>immediately</i>, even with the rise of online distros. They also seem to be more globally accessible in a way zines and minis can be, but often aren&#8217;t. (I&#8217;m thinking here of language issues in addition to distribution.)  </p>
<p>We&#8217;re also lucky&#8211;we do share an exceedingly good local shop &amp; are not far from another <i>really</i> good one (Million Year Picnic).</p>
<p>I think there&#8217;s also a fair bit of potential cross-pollination between offline minis &amp; zines and webcomics. I read <i>Diesel Sweeties</i> online, but haven&#8217;t yet in the newspapers, but I can&#8217;t wait to see what the new collection&#8217;s going to look like. I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;ll like it, since I think it&#8217;s a webcomic so suffused with technology that reading it offline will feel really weird, but I&#8217;m interested to find out.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true, though, that you don&#8217;t have to leave your house to get zines &amp; minis. I&#8217;ve always loved getting a zine or a mini in the mail with a note from the person who made it, though there&#8217;s something sort of similar with webcomics, through email, blogs, etc., (personal vs. private discussion; receiving a private letter/email vs. publicly posting back &amp; forth on a blog.[this suddenly got way more meta than I'd intended]).</p>
<p>(Full disclosure: after weeks of speculation on the topic, I think that reason&#8211;knowing, sort of, where your work is going&#8211;is why I never fully warmed to the idea of putting my autobio work online and is at the heart of why I don&#8217;t distro it very widely. That&#8230;and the print thing.)</p>
<p>Still, direct market specialty shops  are on the whole, I think, <i>so</i> much better than when I started buying comics in high school (more geekery!). Part of that&#8217;s economics in that shops have realized the purchasing market beyond the bags &amp; boards set (I&#8217;m generalizing, obviously) and have started revising their stock (and lighting) accordingly. (Neil Gaiman&#8217;s book about, basically, how to get girls into your comic book store, is sort of where I&#8217;m going with this).</p>
<p>On the web, that&#8217;s not (as much?) an issue. </p>
<p>It is, however, still surprising to see how mass bookstores dealt with graphic novels and trade paperbacks (and continue to do so). And though I generally agree that the Comics Code Authority did more good for comics than harm in the long-term. But in the (retrospective) short term it seemed pretty horrific; can you imagine having Senate subcommittee hearings on comic books today? (No, wait, it&#8217;s <i>video games</i> that are bad! No, wait&#8211;<i>violent TV</i>! No, I meant, <i>rap music</i>&#8230;actually, <i>I</i> have a <i>much</i> better suggestion for something for Senate subcommittee review&#8230;)</p>
<p><i>I wonder what would have happened if the CCA had killed EC and its like today; would webcomics fill the role of Zap, Weirdo et al?</i></p>
<p>Interesting question! Modern pop culture, obviously, would be so hugely different (think about all the &#8216;comic book movies&#8217; for one), though I think counterculture would likely have taken the same arc? I wonder if international works, <i>bande desinee</i> &amp; such, would then have gained more of a footing in the American market?</p>
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		<title>By: bryant.</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61968</link>
		<dc:creator>bryant.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2007 20:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61968</guid>
		<description>I think that now that graphic novels have greater cultural cachet, we're seeing them in a wider variety of stores beyond direct market specialty shops (which isn't to say that all direct market shops are bad: your local shop [and mine] being a good example). At the point in my life where I made the transition from mainstream comics to indie/alt comics (in a big city; that seems to be the common denominator for most comic snobs' genesis), it was a forward thinking shop that fascilitated that change (the late, but amazing Danger Bookstore in Montreal).

If all people had access to a great comic shop/book store where mini-comics and 'zines were readily available if webcomics would have been as important? (Though webcomics are more a global phenomenom; even the most aggressive of mini-comics and 'zine creators is going to have a rather limited distribution.)

As for "comix", I often speculate that the Comics Code Authority did more good for comics than harm, in that it helped spawn the underground comix movement in the United States. Sure, it means that most cartoonists labor in a horribly pruned marketplace without fiscal compensation, but at least we got some amazing art out of it.

I wonder what would have happened if the CCA had killed EC and its like today; would webcomics fill the role of Zap, Weirdo et al?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that now that graphic novels have greater cultural cachet, we&#8217;re seeing them in a wider variety of stores beyond direct market specialty shops (which isn&#8217;t to say that all direct market shops are bad: your local shop [and mine] being a good example). At the point in my life where I made the transition from mainstream comics to indie/alt comics (in a big city; that seems to be the common denominator for most comic snobs&#8217; genesis), it was a forward thinking shop that fascilitated that change (the late, but amazing Danger Bookstore in Montreal).</p>
<p>If all people had access to a great comic shop/book store where mini-comics and &#8216;zines were readily available if webcomics would have been as important? (Though webcomics are more a global phenomenom; even the most aggressive of mini-comics and &#8216;zine creators is going to have a rather limited distribution.)</p>
<p>As for &#8220;comix&#8221;, I often speculate that the Comics Code Authority did more good for comics than harm, in that it helped spawn the underground comix movement in the United States. Sure, it means that most cartoonists labor in a horribly pruned marketplace without fiscal compensation, but at least we got some amazing art out of it.</p>
<p>I wonder what would have happened if the CCA had killed EC and its like today; would webcomics fill the role of Zap, Weirdo et al?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61830</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2007 08:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61830</guid>
		<description>A couple of things:

1. &lt;i&gt;There will just be comics&lt;/i&gt; is an interesting idea, thinking of "comics" as sort of an umbrella term? But would it work? Would losing some of those modifiers be detrimental in the long run?

2. I totally agree with this point: &lt;i&gt;Like minicomics and ‘zines, I think webcomics grew out of a generation of creators who had a love for a medium but whose creative impulses had driven them outside the mainstream &lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt; and think it can potentially track back even earlier, to the advent of "comix" (though that's a term whose history is in actuality more complicated than it seems) in the late 1960s.

But I think there's also a possible middle ground in there as well for readers between webcomics and stealthy forays into poorly lit comic book shops, a third choice that might include indie-er stuff like some of the comic books Fantagraphics published (&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;Naughty Bits&lt;/i&gt;, for one) or Drawn &#38; Quarterly's work, sold in shops that are a little more forward-thinking in their stock. It's a matter, of course, of getting one's hands on it...which makes it a lot like zines in terms of aquiring them, but arguably that's the same boat one's in for trying to get some self-published / small press comics (single issues of &lt;i&gt;Hothead Paisan&lt;/i&gt;, for example).

Plus I might add in something as well about the delivery method; webcomics have great potential for quick, easy access from pretty much anywhere in the world. Minis and zines...not as much? 

As for expectations of comic specialty stores being frightening, dark, unfriendly places--that can sometimes be a boon. Sending my students down to close-read Captain Blue Hen Comics in Newark, DE for every course in which I taught comics / graphic novels / trade paperbacks was one of the most fun assignments I'd ever given, and a major reason it was effective was because everyone went into it with exactly these low expectations; very few of them thought they'd find it, to steal a phrase, a clean well-lighted place. It's a &lt;i&gt;great&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt; shop.

3. Unrelated to comics: Yay for beer!&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of things:</p>
<p>1. <i>There will just be comics</i> is an interesting idea, thinking of &#8220;comics&#8221; as sort of an umbrella term? But would it work? Would losing some of those modifiers be detrimental in the long run?</p>
<p>2. I totally agree with this point: <i>Like minicomics and ‘zines, I think webcomics grew out of a generation of creators who had a love for a medium but whose creative impulses had driven them outside the mainstream </i><i> and think it can potentially track back even earlier, to the advent of &#8220;comix&#8221; (though that&#8217;s a term whose history is in actuality more complicated than it seems) in the late 1960s.</p>
<p>But I think there&#8217;s also a possible middle ground in there as well for readers between webcomics and stealthy forays into poorly lit comic book shops, a third choice that might include indie-er stuff like some of the comic books Fantagraphics published (</i><i>Naughty Bits</i>, for one) or Drawn &amp; Quarterly&#8217;s work, sold in shops that are a little more forward-thinking in their stock. It&#8217;s a matter, of course, of getting one&#8217;s hands on it&#8230;which makes it a lot like zines in terms of aquiring them, but arguably that&#8217;s the same boat one&#8217;s in for trying to get some self-published / small press comics (single issues of <i>Hothead Paisan</i>, for example).</p>
<p>Plus I might add in something as well about the delivery method; webcomics have great potential for quick, easy access from pretty much anywhere in the world. Minis and zines&#8230;not as much? </p>
<p>As for expectations of comic specialty stores being frightening, dark, unfriendly places&#8211;that can sometimes be a boon. Sending my students down to close-read Captain Blue Hen Comics in Newark, DE for every course in which I taught comics / graphic novels / trade paperbacks was one of the most fun assignments I&#8217;d ever given, and a major reason it was effective was because everyone went into it with exactly these low expectations; very few of them thought they&#8217;d find it, to steal a phrase, a clean well-lighted place. It&#8217;s a <i>great</i><i> shop.</p>
<p>3. Unrelated to comics: Yay for beer!</i></p>
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		<title>By: bryant.</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61774</link>
		<dc:creator>bryant.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Before graphic novels became "cool," I'd say the possibility of separating webcomics from comics was quite possible: webcomics were the comics that hip people could read without feeling like they were slumming it in poorly lit dungeons of nerdery (obviously I'm generalizing a bit). You'd find them in the "links" pages of people you'd never imagine thumbing through an issue of Spiderman.

Now that there are reviews of Persepolis and Jimmy Corrigan in the Guardian and the New York Times, I'd say that the likelihood of a semantic divorce between webcomics and comics is slim if only because it gives people a common point of reference (you'll like my webcomic, it's sort of like Louis Riel, but with goth teenagers instead of Metis). People can read webcomics without the shame of having to explain that they're not reading superhero comics, but -you know- good stuff like American Born Chinese.

Like minicomics and 'zines, I think webcomics grew out of a generation of creators who had a love for a medium but whose creative impusles had driven them outside the mainstream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before graphic novels became &#8220;cool,&#8221; I&#8217;d say the possibility of separating webcomics from comics was quite possible: webcomics were the comics that hip people could read without feeling like they were slumming it in poorly lit dungeons of nerdery (obviously I&#8217;m generalizing a bit). You&#8217;d find them in the &#8220;links&#8221; pages of people you&#8217;d never imagine thumbing through an issue of Spiderman.</p>
<p>Now that there are reviews of Persepolis and Jimmy Corrigan in the Guardian and the New York Times, I&#8217;d say that the likelihood of a semantic divorce between webcomics and comics is slim if only because it gives people a common point of reference (you&#8217;ll like my webcomic, it&#8217;s sort of like Louis Riel, but with goth teenagers instead of Metis). People can read webcomics without the shame of having to explain that they&#8217;re not reading superhero comics, but -you know- good stuff like American Born Chinese.</p>
<p>Like minicomics and &#8216;zines, I think webcomics grew out of a generation of creators who had a love for a medium but whose creative impusles had driven them outside the mainstream.</p>
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		<title>By: Erg</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2007/03/01/fleen-guest-column-anne-thalheimer-in-closer-than-you-might-think/#comment-61753</link>
		<dc:creator>Erg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I just wonder to what extent comics really can be seperated from webcomics given the convergence of the two.  Most major webcomics now have print collections whose sales make up a large part of the revenues for the comic and it appears within the next ten years most print comics will also be web entities.  There will just be comics.  

And manga, more than anything, is steadily demolishing the old comics stereotypes and creating new ones.  (For instance, if you want to talk about the most popular comics in 20 years, I will bet you anything they are American made, manga/american fusion styled harlequin romances)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wonder to what extent comics really can be seperated from webcomics given the convergence of the two.  Most major webcomics now have print collections whose sales make up a large part of the revenues for the comic and it appears within the next ten years most print comics will also be web entities.  There will just be comics.  </p>
<p>And manga, more than anything, is steadily demolishing the old comics stereotypes and creating new ones.  (For instance, if you want to talk about the most popular comics in 20 years, I will bet you anything they are American made, manga/american fusion styled harlequin romances)</p>
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