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	<title>Comments on: Warning: Navel Gazing Ahead</title>
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	<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/</link>
	<description>the webcomics blog about webcomics</description>
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		<title>By: Nestor</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236935</link>
		<dc:creator>Nestor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:12:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236935</guid>
		<description>Webcomics have a major visibility problem, I am into webcomics and even then I don&#039;t recognize 90% of the names mentioned here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Webcomics have a major visibility problem, I am into webcomics and even then I don&#8217;t recognize 90% of the names mentioned here.</p>
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		<title>By: Digital Strips: The Webcomics Podcast</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236768</link>
		<dc:creator>Digital Strips: The Webcomics Podcast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236768</guid>
		<description>[...] Gary Tyrrell tackles a loaded question: How do you gauge the popularity of a webcomic? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Gary Tyrrell tackles a loaded question: How do you gauge the popularity of a webcomic? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: T Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236691</link>
		<dc:creator>T Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236691</guid>
		<description>I think it does. 

A couple of e-mailers have confided in me that they have done private page-to-page tests, and, at least in their isolated cases, PW did a better job than Alexa in representing the shape of their traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it does. </p>
<p>A couple of e-mailers have confided in me that they have done private page-to-page tests, and, at least in their isolated cases, PW did a better job than Alexa in representing the shape of their traffic.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236673</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:05:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236673</guid>
		<description>T&#039;s absolutely right: if you step back and look at what PW does, it tracks hits that the ad box receives, because that&#039;s what a potential advertiser cares about.  Whether this is on the forums or on the comic page or wherever can be estimated from looking at the referrer list, but if you&#039;re looking for raw &quot;Comic X gets this many hits&quot;, you&#039;re going to have to make sure that the comics you&#039;re comparing are being used in the same way.  Like T says, I&#039;ve got the same ad box on my landing page and on my archives, while Jeph has one for each - that&#039;ll lead to different data!

You can end up in situations like Gordon in a variety of ways.  For one, Google massages their data in a way we don&#039;t: we just record hits and uniques for the day and display that.  If their code is on more pages, or ours is on different pages, you&#039;ll get different results.  To further muddy the waters, Google&#039;s JavaScript doesn&#039;t detect hits if the viewer has JavaScript disabled, while Project Wonderful still loads an image that we can track - but then, if they&#039;re running adblock software, they may not see it even IF they&#039;re running JavaScript.  But again, PW wants to show you how many viewers your ad will get, so the smaller number that ignores people running adblock software is what we want.

I get a few emails at Project Wonderful occasionally asking about this discrepancy between Google and PW stats (sometimes one&#039;s bigger, sometimes it&#039;s the other) and generally it&#039;s often the case that each of us are tracking different things on different pages.  The bottom line is that, in all cases, the most reliable data you&#039;re going to have is your own log files: they can record things like direct image access (ie: someone inlining your comic on a forum) that neither PW or Google are aware of.

But I think here we&#039;re more concerned with estimating audience size, which is always going to be fuzzy.  I think Project Wonderful does make that more open than it was in the past, but you still need to take into account the forum / archive / &quot;hosted on multiple domains with ad boxes only on one&quot; issues when you&#039;re looking at them.  Unfortunately PW is designed to show you what exposure an ad will get, not how much traffic a given comic receives - though in some cases they should be the same.

Does that help?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>T&#8217;s absolutely right: if you step back and look at what PW does, it tracks hits that the ad box receives, because that&#8217;s what a potential advertiser cares about.  Whether this is on the forums or on the comic page or wherever can be estimated from looking at the referrer list, but if you&#8217;re looking for raw &#8220;Comic X gets this many hits&#8221;, you&#8217;re going to have to make sure that the comics you&#8217;re comparing are being used in the same way.  Like T says, I&#8217;ve got the same ad box on my landing page and on my archives, while Jeph has one for each &#8211; that&#8217;ll lead to different data!</p>
<p>You can end up in situations like Gordon in a variety of ways.  For one, Google massages their data in a way we don&#8217;t: we just record hits and uniques for the day and display that.  If their code is on more pages, or ours is on different pages, you&#8217;ll get different results.  To further muddy the waters, Google&#8217;s JavaScript doesn&#8217;t detect hits if the viewer has JavaScript disabled, while Project Wonderful still loads an image that we can track &#8211; but then, if they&#8217;re running adblock software, they may not see it even IF they&#8217;re running JavaScript.  But again, PW wants to show you how many viewers your ad will get, so the smaller number that ignores people running adblock software is what we want.</p>
<p>I get a few emails at Project Wonderful occasionally asking about this discrepancy between Google and PW stats (sometimes one&#8217;s bigger, sometimes it&#8217;s the other) and generally it&#8217;s often the case that each of us are tracking different things on different pages.  The bottom line is that, in all cases, the most reliable data you&#8217;re going to have is your own log files: they can record things like direct image access (ie: someone inlining your comic on a forum) that neither PW or Google are aware of.</p>
<p>But I think here we&#8217;re more concerned with estimating audience size, which is always going to be fuzzy.  I think Project Wonderful does make that more open than it was in the past, but you still need to take into account the forum / archive / &#8220;hosted on multiple domains with ad boxes only on one&#8221; issues when you&#8217;re looking at them.  Unfortunately PW is designed to show you what exposure an ad will get, not how much traffic a given comic receives &#8211; though in some cases they should be the same.</p>
<p>Does that help?</p>
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		<title>By: T Campbell</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236663</link>
		<dc:creator>T Campbell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236663</guid>
		<description>Crossposted from Comixtalk (though Gordon may have beaten me to the punch):

Some problems with PW data:

Sites like mine use one PW ad for multiple domains, but only as a default; therefore, our PW score is much lower than it was when we used it as our sole advertising network.

Sites like QC use one ad format for their main page and another for their archives.

Some sites put PW on their forums, greatly increasing the total number of ad views, and some do not.

To my knowledge, no one has independently tested the data&#039;s accuracy against something like Google Analytics, even allowing for the problems cited above. I never used PW in a straightforward way with one PW ad on every single page, so I couldn&#039;t test for a pageview-to-pageview match. Ryan North is a great guy, and I have no doubt he&#039;s proud of his system, but if you&#039;re going to state that the PW data is superior, you really want to be able to back that up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crossposted from Comixtalk (though Gordon may have beaten me to the punch):</p>
<p>Some problems with PW data:</p>
<p>Sites like mine use one PW ad for multiple domains, but only as a default; therefore, our PW score is much lower than it was when we used it as our sole advertising network.</p>
<p>Sites like QC use one ad format for their main page and another for their archives.</p>
<p>Some sites put PW on their forums, greatly increasing the total number of ad views, and some do not.</p>
<p>To my knowledge, no one has independently tested the data&#8217;s accuracy against something like Google Analytics, even allowing for the problems cited above. I never used PW in a straightforward way with one PW ad on every single page, so I couldn&#8217;t test for a pageview-to-pageview match. Ryan North is a great guy, and I have no doubt he&#8217;s proud of his system, but if you&#8217;re going to state that the PW data is superior, you really want to be able to back that up.</p>
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		<title>By: xerexes</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236659</link>
		<dc:creator>xerexes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:52:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236659</guid>
		<description>Gordon

That&#039;s interesting... and perplexing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon</p>
<p>That&#8217;s interesting&#8230; and perplexing.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236655</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236655</guid>
		<description>Project Wonderful is actually spectacularly inaccurate.

For Sunday, for instance, Multiplex clocked 22.6k visitors and 30.6k pageviews according PW â€” but according to Google Analytics, those numbers were 10.4k (9.3k unique) and 45.7k respectively.

They&#039;re â€” presumably â€” similarly inaccurate with all the other sites on the network, so it&#039;s still useful if you&#039;re a prospective advertiser, but compared to real-world metric, no. Not really accurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Project Wonderful is actually spectacularly inaccurate.</p>
<p>For Sunday, for instance, Multiplex clocked 22.6k visitors and 30.6k pageviews according PW â€” but according to Google Analytics, those numbers were 10.4k (9.3k unique) and 45.7k respectively.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re â€” presumably â€” similarly inaccurate with all the other sites on the network, so it&#8217;s still useful if you&#8217;re a prospective advertiser, but compared to real-world metric, no. Not really accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: b.patrick</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236517</link>
		<dc:creator>b.patrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236517</guid>
		<description>I wish there was an accurate way to measure &quot;readers&quot; as opposed to just &quot;visitors&quot;. I was really shocked to see my personal favorites (done by women, incidentally) not cracking the top 25 while they tower as the measure of success to me. As most of the really popular comics leave me wanting, I&#039;d like to see a list of the definitive top 25 in quality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish there was an accurate way to measure &#8220;readers&#8221; as opposed to just &#8220;visitors&#8221;. I was really shocked to see my personal favorites (done by women, incidentally) not cracking the top 25 while they tower as the measure of success to me. As most of the really popular comics leave me wanting, I&#8217;d like to see a list of the definitive top 25 in quality.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel Keslensky</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236483</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel Keslensky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:53:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236483</guid>
		<description>I agree with Jon that in another five years women cartoonists will be much more visible / popular than they are now, but there&#039;s a lot of power in being the first to market. Unless you&#039;re counting on several of these currently popular comics to stop within the next five years, it&#039;ll take a bit more than just time to unseat the top 25, regardless of gender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Jon that in another five years women cartoonists will be much more visible / popular than they are now, but there&#8217;s a lot of power in being the first to market. Unless you&#8217;re counting on several of these currently popular comics to stop within the next five years, it&#8217;ll take a bit more than just time to unseat the top 25, regardless of gender.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Rosenberg</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2008/10/17/warning-navel-gazing-ahead/comment-page-1/#comment-236472</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Rosenberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:57:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=2296#comment-236472</guid>
		<description>I think five years from now this conversation will be moot. The first webcomics folks were mostly men (boys, really) but almost all of the great new work that I&#039;ve seen in the last couple of years has come from women. Give them some time to build their audiences and I doubt you&#039;ll see much difference in average traffic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think five years from now this conversation will be moot. The first webcomics folks were mostly men (boys, really) but almost all of the great new work that I&#8217;ve seen in the last couple of years has come from women. Give them some time to build their audiences and I doubt you&#8217;ll see much difference in average traffic.</p>
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