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	<title>Comments on: Emergency Post To Vent Rage</title>
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	<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/</link>
	<description>the webcomics blog about webcomics</description>
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		<title>By: ZEITGEIST / Sometimes The Internet Disappoints Me</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242889</link>
		<dc:creator>ZEITGEIST / Sometimes The Internet Disappoints Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242889</guid>
		<description>[...] of liked that he put those thoughts out there. Even though many of the responses were strong -- one, two -- I tend to see passionate dialogue as a good thing, and I think it&#039;s really only the fact [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of liked that he put those thoughts out there. Even though many of the responses were strong &#8212; one, two &#8212; I tend to see passionate dialogue as a good thing, and I think it&#8217;s really only the fact [...]</p>
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		<title>By: dave roman</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242814</link>
		<dc:creator>dave roman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:41:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242814</guid>
		<description>I think your point about Snoopy is a good one. But it also raises a distinction. I&#039;d argue it&#039;s different when one has their comic character merchandised raising it&#039;s popularity versus a cartoonist who is also really good at coming up with clever t-shirts that sometimes sort of relate back to a reference in their comic. I&#039;m not saying one is better than the other. Just that I don&#039;t  think it&#039;s the same thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your point about Snoopy is a good one. But it also raises a distinction. I&#8217;d argue it&#8217;s different when one has their comic character merchandised raising it&#8217;s popularity versus a cartoonist who is also really good at coming up with clever t-shirts that sometimes sort of relate back to a reference in their comic. I&#8217;m not saying one is better than the other. Just that I don&#8217;t  think it&#8217;s the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: pablowapsi</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242812</link>
		<dc:creator>pablowapsi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242812</guid>
		<description>Hi Neil,  I must admit, you are a very stand up guy for retracting and the apology. :)  The webcomic community is indeed very welcoming and most certainly open to share info, there&#039;s plenty of readers out there and a community (and shared communities) of fans for all of them.
On that note, I make most of my money from advertising, original art sales, book and lastly t-shirts.  In that order.  My work doesn&#039;t translate well to shirt sales and yet I&#039;m doing this gig full time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Neil,  I must admit, you are a very stand up guy for retracting and the apology. <img src='http://www.fleen.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   The webcomic community is indeed very welcoming and most certainly open to share info, there&#8217;s plenty of readers out there and a community (and shared communities) of fans for all of them.<br />
On that note, I make most of my money from advertising, original art sales, book and lastly t-shirts.  In that order.  My work doesn&#8217;t translate well to shirt sales and yet I&#8217;m doing this gig full time.</p>
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		<title>By: doctoradder</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242807</link>
		<dc:creator>doctoradder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242807</guid>
		<description>It looks like it&#039;s kind of a dead issue, given Neill&#039;s honorable retraction above... but it&#039;s worth pointing out, in case this issue ever comes up again, that this logic means it&#039;s a misnomer whenever musicians get called &quot;artists.&quot;  Because like webcomics artists, most working musicians depend on merch sales -- that&#039;s the dominant model for much of the biz.

For most musicians, they get next to nothing from album sales, they barely break even or even lose money touring...  the place they make their &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; ducats is at the merch booth.  And I don&#039;t see how that has f-all to do with their artistic credibility or lack of same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like it&#8217;s kind of a dead issue, given Neill&#8217;s honorable retraction above&#8230; but it&#8217;s worth pointing out, in case this issue ever comes up again, that this logic means it&#8217;s a misnomer whenever musicians get called &#8220;artists.&#8221;  Because like webcomics artists, most working musicians depend on merch sales &#8212; that&#8217;s the dominant model for much of the biz.</p>
<p>For most musicians, they get next to nothing from album sales, they barely break even or even lose money touring&#8230;  the place they make their <i>real</i> ducats is at the merch booth.  And I don&#8217;t see how that has f-all to do with their artistic credibility or lack of same.</p>
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		<title>By: Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Feb. 2, 2009: Some kind of ethical high ground thing</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242798</link>
		<dc:creator>Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Feb. 2, 2009: Some kind of ethical high ground thing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242798</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;I am officially sick of this argument. Everybody that looks down on webcomics creators as &#8216;artists second,&#8217; get off your goddamned high horse.&#8221; - Gary Tyrrell [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;I am officially sick of this argument. Everybody that looks down on webcomics creators as &#8216;artists second,&#8217; get off your goddamned high horse.&#8221; &#8211; Gary Tyrrell [...]</p>
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		<title>By: XAQ</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242754</link>
		<dc:creator>XAQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242754</guid>
		<description>The community IS very forgiving, and even welcoming.  But the webcomics community is also very sensitive to criticism that it&#039;s somehow not &quot;legitimate&quot;.

There are TONS of ways to succeed in webcomics without doing t-shirts.  Howard Tayler makes a good living from his work, most of which comes from book sales (according to his Open Source talk).  Phil and Kaia Foglio make the vast majority of their income from books as well.  Dave Kellet makes his money from selling original artwork.  T-shirts and merchandise are NOT the only path to webcomics success.

The problem is, it takes time, effort and hard work to set up those revenue streams, whichever ones you choose to pursue.  But it definitely CAN be done, no matter WHAT your comic is about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The community IS very forgiving, and even welcoming.  But the webcomics community is also very sensitive to criticism that it&#8217;s somehow not &#8220;legitimate&#8221;.</p>
<p>There are TONS of ways to succeed in webcomics without doing t-shirts.  Howard Tayler makes a good living from his work, most of which comes from book sales (according to his Open Source talk).  Phil and Kaia Foglio make the vast majority of their income from books as well.  Dave Kellet makes his money from selling original artwork.  T-shirts and merchandise are NOT the only path to webcomics success.</p>
<p>The problem is, it takes time, effort and hard work to set up those revenue streams, whichever ones you choose to pursue.  But it definitely CAN be done, no matter WHAT your comic is about.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242752</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 03:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242752</guid>
		<description>Neil--

I only speak for myself on this, but perhaps my thoughts will offer you some insight into why this sort of thing bothers a lot of webcartoonists.

Almost all of us grew up reading the work of alternative cartoonists. We looked up to (and still look up to) you guys as the trailblazers. But, when we got to an age where we could attempt to be pros too, most of us didn&#039;t fit in. So, we spent the last ten years working on our craft and building a universe online where we could make a living as comic artists.

Now, we&#039;ve succeeded. The number of professional webcartoonists is growing exponentially, and the quantity, quality, and variety is greater than anything comics have seen for years. Genres that haven&#039;t really existed since the fifties, such as Romance, are back and strong. Genres that were never popular in print, such as Gaming, are some of the biggest comics online. By blazing our own trail, and defying a lot of the naysayers, we&#039;ve been able to hew out a living for ourselves.

Recently, a lot of the veteran cartoonists we&#039;ve looked up to are running into hard times due to the dying newspaper industry and the bad economy in general. Since many of us are still big fans, we&#039;ve reached out to try to help people understand how webcartoonists work - how we feel the future of cartooning in general will work. Although there have been a few people to embrace the web side of things, mostly it seems like we get treated like idiot kids. 

It&#039;s like trying to give someone a handshake, and being spit on.

Adding to the bitterness is what a lot of us perceive as hypocrisy. Alt cartoonists used to be the rebels who were making a new model for the comics business. They had to put up with people shitting on them in order to get where they are. Now that a new generation is trying to do the same thing, we&#039;re getting shit from alt cartoonists.

Furthermore, on countless occasions, we hear people (whom we still respect as artists) who claim that there&#039;s no money on the web, even though there are literally hundreds of professional webcartoonists, some of whom are millionaires.

Worst of all, we really think you guys are cool! There isn&#039;t an artist in the webcartoonist community who wouldn&#039;t get wide-eyed at the chance to see Max Cannon&#039;s studio. Most of us are doing fine in terms of income, growth, and popularity, and would relish the opportunity to help some of the pre-web cartoonists make the adjustment. But, instead of coming to us for help (or even accepting our help when offered), we&#039;re often treated like brats and nobodies.

If the last five years are any lesson, the web is the future for comics. Traditional artists who insist on this &quot;us/them&quot; dichotomy based on irrelevant things like particular modes of revenue are going to end up without a job. This is a situation nobody relishes.

Right now, there&#039;s still a lot of good will and respect. But, as many traditional format cartoonists have noted, the print comics business is on its last legs. If any of the folks who do traditional stuff want to make the adjustment before it&#039;s too late, there are plenty of webcartoonists who&#039;d be happy to supply the detailed information on how to go about it, merely in exchange for the opportunity to work with some of our heroes.

They&#039;re certainly welcome to email me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil&#8211;</p>
<p>I only speak for myself on this, but perhaps my thoughts will offer you some insight into why this sort of thing bothers a lot of webcartoonists.</p>
<p>Almost all of us grew up reading the work of alternative cartoonists. We looked up to (and still look up to) you guys as the trailblazers. But, when we got to an age where we could attempt to be pros too, most of us didn&#8217;t fit in. So, we spent the last ten years working on our craft and building a universe online where we could make a living as comic artists.</p>
<p>Now, we&#8217;ve succeeded. The number of professional webcartoonists is growing exponentially, and the quantity, quality, and variety is greater than anything comics have seen for years. Genres that haven&#8217;t really existed since the fifties, such as Romance, are back and strong. Genres that were never popular in print, such as Gaming, are some of the biggest comics online. By blazing our own trail, and defying a lot of the naysayers, we&#8217;ve been able to hew out a living for ourselves.</p>
<p>Recently, a lot of the veteran cartoonists we&#8217;ve looked up to are running into hard times due to the dying newspaper industry and the bad economy in general. Since many of us are still big fans, we&#8217;ve reached out to try to help people understand how webcartoonists work &#8211; how we feel the future of cartooning in general will work. Although there have been a few people to embrace the web side of things, mostly it seems like we get treated like idiot kids. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s like trying to give someone a handshake, and being spit on.</p>
<p>Adding to the bitterness is what a lot of us perceive as hypocrisy. Alt cartoonists used to be the rebels who were making a new model for the comics business. They had to put up with people shitting on them in order to get where they are. Now that a new generation is trying to do the same thing, we&#8217;re getting shit from alt cartoonists.</p>
<p>Furthermore, on countless occasions, we hear people (whom we still respect as artists) who claim that there&#8217;s no money on the web, even though there are literally hundreds of professional webcartoonists, some of whom are millionaires.</p>
<p>Worst of all, we really think you guys are cool! There isn&#8217;t an artist in the webcartoonist community who wouldn&#8217;t get wide-eyed at the chance to see Max Cannon&#8217;s studio. Most of us are doing fine in terms of income, growth, and popularity, and would relish the opportunity to help some of the pre-web cartoonists make the adjustment. But, instead of coming to us for help (or even accepting our help when offered), we&#8217;re often treated like brats and nobodies.</p>
<p>If the last five years are any lesson, the web is the future for comics. Traditional artists who insist on this &#8220;us/them&#8221; dichotomy based on irrelevant things like particular modes of revenue are going to end up without a job. This is a situation nobody relishes.</p>
<p>Right now, there&#8217;s still a lot of good will and respect. But, as many traditional format cartoonists have noted, the print comics business is on its last legs. If any of the folks who do traditional stuff want to make the adjustment before it&#8217;s too late, there are plenty of webcartoonists who&#8217;d be happy to supply the detailed information on how to go about it, merely in exchange for the opportunity to work with some of our heroes.</p>
<p>They&#8217;re certainly welcome to email me.</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Swaab</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242746</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Swaab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242746</guid>
		<description>Thanks Chris and Gary. I&#039;m glad that we can be on friendly terms. I really wasn&#039;t trying to cause any kind of upset or ill-will in the webcomics community or speak ignorantly but I did on both counts and you were certainly right to call bullshit on it. Glad we could mend this. I hope the rest of the community is as forgiving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Chris and Gary. I&#8217;m glad that we can be on friendly terms. I really wasn&#8217;t trying to cause any kind of upset or ill-will in the webcomics community or speak ignorantly but I did on both counts and you were certainly right to call bullshit on it. Glad we could mend this. I hope the rest of the community is as forgiving.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Tyrrell</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242737</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Tyrrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242737</guid>
		<description>Neil,

Yours is the one reaction to my post that I didn&#039;t expect; I am impressed and will tell the world that you&#039;re a stand-up guy. Please hold on to your blood, flesh, and offspring. 

No doubt we will continue to have very different perspectives on how webcomics can accomodate various creators (although I do think that both editorial and alt-weekly cartoonists will probably have the toughest transition in front of them). I will continue to point out arguments I both agree and vehemently disagree with, but please believe it&#039;s not personal. 

With any luck, the back-and-forth will produce avenues of exploration that will be beneficial to all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil,</p>
<p>Yours is the one reaction to my post that I didn&#8217;t expect; I am impressed and will tell the world that you&#8217;re a stand-up guy. Please hold on to your blood, flesh, and offspring. </p>
<p>No doubt we will continue to have very different perspectives on how webcomics can accomodate various creators (although I do think that both editorial and alt-weekly cartoonists will probably have the toughest transition in front of them). I will continue to point out arguments I both agree and vehemently disagree with, but please believe it&#8217;s not personal. </p>
<p>With any luck, the back-and-forth will produce avenues of exploration that will be beneficial to all.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Crosby</title>
		<link>http://www.fleen.com/archives/2009/02/01/emergency-post-to-vent-rage/comment-page-1/#comment-242733</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Crosby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 20:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fleen.com/?p=3159#comment-242733</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s also a myth that webcartoonists can only make a living on merchandising revenue.  There are a bunch of webcomics like my own that thrive primarily on advertising revenue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s also a myth that webcartoonists can only make a living on merchandising revenue.  There are a bunch of webcomics like my own that thrive primarily on advertising revenue.</p>
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