Fleen: Other creators have taken comics-on-paper and transitioned to the web as a means to spread their back issues to new audiences while maintaining a print line. Others have gone further and shifted entirely creator-owned comics to online for first publication. Given that your experiment with Skullkickers online is a week old, any idea which direction you’ll end up taking?

JZ: It’s too early to say which strategy would work best for Skullkickers. We’re definitely releasing our new story arc through Image as issues starting in April. Once we see how well that does, and if the online serialization of older issues helps sales, then we’ll be better informed to make that kind of decision.

Fleen: From a logistical standpoint, what made you decide to go with Keenspot instead of using the Skullkickers domain you already had?

JZ: The Skullkickers website has become a catch-all place for people to find out information, get comic previews, see reviews, and find out about things like the upcoming Munchkin card game expansion. If Skullkickers continues to grow then I’d like skullkickers.com to be the hub for every aspect of it, not just comic pages.

If the Keenspot site picks up enough steam then it’s possible I’d redirect the .com address to it at some point and integrate the other material as part of the webcomic site. We’ll see how it goes. All of this is an experiment. I feel like it’s one that will help us grow, but it’s not a certainty.

Fleen: Skullkickers has a third story arc that’s getting ready to debut, and you’ve mentioned that the full story you want to tell would take six or seven arcs, if the sales could sustain it that long. Does the possibility of running the comic online without having to make the costs of printing / publishing / distribution make it more likely we’ll see that full story?

JZ: Yeah, it’s absolutely possible. I see the comic online as a way to engage new readers, bringing them onboard the story we’re building, showing them the great stuff we’ve already done and, day by day, make them a fan of the series. At that point it’s easy for them to get all caught up with our trade paperbacks, issues or digital comics if they’d like.

If the series keeps sustaining its creative costs, on any and all platforms, I’d be thrilled to tell the master story I have all planned out, dragging our monster mashing idiots all over the place wrecking every trope and setting imaginable as we skewer the grand-daddy of all fantasy stories, the “heroes of destiny” cliché.

I want people to enjoy Skullkickers and I’m not picky about how they’re doing that. In print or online – it’s all comics and it’s all viable. The divide between physical and digital media is breaking down in video, print and audio. They’re not really “webcomics” any more, they’re just comics.

Fleen: Okay, let’s talk about creative costs a little more. Creating/printing/publishing/distributing floppies of Skullkickers: considering all the people that need to be paid requires x number of readers buying the comic to just break even. You aren’t even making any money, you’re just paying everybody else associated with the book.

Creating/not printing/production work/hosting Skullkickers on the web: same deal, but this time you need y number of readers for the ad rates to hit that break even point. What’s the ratio of x/y? Any idea how many readers of the comics you have that aren’t actually buying it (e.g.: the entire population of Russia), who can now be contributing to your financial well-being?

JZ: As the web archive deepens, our pageviews will tend to go up because each new reader is getting caught up, contributing a whack of pageviews all in one day as they do so. Ad campaign payout rates also fluctuate a lot from month to month. Those two factors change the math of it quite a bit.

If we’re talking readers who are only reading the latest page every day and that’s it (1 pageview per reader per weekday) that number balloons quite a bit, as you might imagine. In that not-really-realistic scenario we’d need about 20+ times as many readers as we have right now in print to cover our monthly issues just in ad view payout money.

That sounds like a massive increase, and it is, but in our first week at Keenspot we had more unique IP visits (i.e.: new readers) than all three printings of Skullkickers #1 combined, so we’re off to a strong start out the gate.

My fingers are crossed that a combination of web pageview ad payouts, print comic sales, digital comic sales, trade sales and convention sales will work together to keep the series running strong so I can tell the entire story I have planned.

Fleen: If Skullkickers did shift to an only-print-the-trades model, would we still get those post-arc guest issues?

JZ: I intend to keep those going, yes. Our Tavern Tales collaborations are far too fun for us to skip out on. I’d be thrilled to get comic superstars like Scott Kurtz, Ryan North or Rich Burlew onboard for a Skullkickers Tavern Tale.

Fleen: We both know that you’re not going to answer, but I have to ask: when do we learn Baldy and Shorty’s real names?

JZ: They have names? Who told you that? :)

Fleen: Art is all about appropriation and reworking, but this is at least the — third? fourth? — fairly obvious direct copy of your work by different parties. What is it about your work that makes you such a high-profile target for these situations?

Fink: There is a great deal of difference in being inspired by a work and completely copying it. I’ve been inspired by a ton of artists and it’s reflected in my work I’m sure, but that is the outcome of living within the art community and growing up with it. After cookie loves milk got printed there was a swarm of food based shirts, peanut butter and jelly, ketchup and mustard and if they were inspired by my design it wouldn’t bother me.

I think the reason It’s been stolen so many times is that the art is fairly simple. I’m just playing around with the idea of cookies being good with milk, it’s something everyone understands. I’ve made other designs for Threadless that are much more illustrations rather than funny concepts and those never get ripped off (not that I’m daring anymore) because it’s a much more complex thing to copy. The thing with simple designs is that you can just take the idea and make art that is slightly different, that way they think no one will notice who they stole it from. Obviously I also can’t hold a copyright on the idea of cookies being good with milk, but I can take action against people who blatantly copy and even trace my designs.

Fleen: In a weird way, is it flattering that so many people want to copy your designs?

Fink: No! Haha. A lot of people ask this and it’s really not! Every time I get an email about some Cafe press store selling cookie loves milk rip-offs or a big name department store selling a trace or some shop in Hong Kong printing exact copies it just completely ruins my day. You don’t get paid an awful lot to make shirt designs so feeling like you are getting exploited is never fun. If it were just something similar someone made that they weren’t selling it would be a completely different story, but I know these places are making money off of something that is mine.

Fleen: This is a Threadless shirt design, and they hold the copyright to be defended. In a perfect world, what would they do now?

Fink: Well it might not be a perfect world but it might be a polite one at least! In the past when dealing with these situations Threadless has granted me the authority to take legal action myself.

Fleen: What would make it less likely for you to be targeted in this way?

Fink: I’m not really sure. Less jerks in the world? Science needs to find a way to see if a person is a jerk or not right when they are born! “It’s a girl! Oh…I’m sorry, it’s also a jerk.”

Honestly I think more people need to be aware of art theft and how often it happens and how wrong it is. There are people who just appropriate things without even thinking that it’s stealing. Someone once sent me a shirt with a panel from my comic, Chester 5000 on it. It was cut up in with a bunch of panels from other black and white comics. I would assume that the person who made the shirt just thought they were making a shirt covered in cut-outs from cartoons, not realizing that you can only use art from the public domain. I don’t think most people are actually taught what intellectual property means.

Fleen: What do you think drives people to engage in such blatant copying?

Fink: I think it’s just ignorance and in the case of Todd Goldman simply wanting to make a buck by any means possible. He churns out copy after copy of other people’s work, it’s the quantity over quality technique. He thinks, “If I make enough crap someone will buy at least one.” And at this point it’s really pretty disgusting since he knows he is blatantly ripping off hard working artists and he’s been involved in so many legal battles for it, it’s hard to imagine being such a nasty person.

Fleen: Todd Goldman has tossed lawsuit threats over copying accusations in the past. Do you feel that speaking truthfully about this — “situation” — puts you at any risk?

Fink: It’s always a little scary dealing with situations like these but I feel that I have enough evidence against Goldman that I can talk freely. His rip-offs of my work are far from coincidental since he actually offered me a job back in 2008, telling me he loved my Lil’ Soap and Cookie Loves Milk designs and then instead of giving me work apparently decided it was more profitable to just rip me off.

Fleen: How long before somebody starts passing off Chester or Time Traveling Jess as their work? How badly will you beat them?

Fink: SO HARD. I will beat them with all of my fists at once! And then Top Shelf will beat them too! Both books (Chester 5000 and We Can Fix It) are due out next year and honestly I’m excited but kind of scared to death!

Fleen: So, how did you end up with the publishers of puzzles to Thomas Kincade, Painter of Light™ ™?

Yates: Well, Gary, I was just minding my business one day back in June, y’know, making puzzles, comics, toys, y’know the usual. And then all of a sudden this dude Jason from a big puzzle and game manufacturer emails me and just found my work, and is super-excited. We talk on the phone later that day and agree to see if we can’t make some kind of production Bafflers available to the masses.

Over the six-month viability and development process, (VP of Development) Jason and Ceaco at large have treated me with respect and seem truly excited to break some ground, making something the mainstream puzzle market hasn’t seen before.

But to answer your question directly, Jason said he was just surfing the web for interesting illustrators for work, but I only had one, expensive, highly clicked Project Wonderful ad for my puzzles up that very day at Questionable Content. So yes.

Fleen: Are you doing original Baffler designs, or have they licensed some of your existing designs?

Yates: Ceaco and I will be working together to adapt previous designs I’ve made in painted wood for the initial series. It’s been and going to be a tricky process, but I’m confident we’re going to get some great results.

The production Bafflers will still be inlaid tray puzzles, printed on chipboard, with graphics directly taken from an extensive spray-paint mottling “library” I am providing. Ceaco is creating custom dies to cut each of the Baffler designs, so they will be just as lovely and tough as my original.

Fleen: Since most of us probably aren’t puzzle afficianados, give us some scope — how many puzzle designs do these people publish each year, how many copies, in how wide a market?

Yates: Ceaco is a gentle giant, one of the largest North American jigsaw puzzle companies, selling and distributing world-wide, via many imprints and licenses. They sell jigsaw puzzles everywhere you can find them. From specialty game shops like It’s Your Move to Barnes & Noble and Target, it’ll be out there!

I am not exactly sure how many other folks’ work Ceaco pick up a year, nor their exact distribution figures, but I do know they are selective and successful, so hopefully that is a good sign!

Fleen: Any idea how many copies they’re going to print of your designs? How many designs, and over what time frame?

Yates: We’re starting with 3 “abstract geometric” designs for the first production run, but there will likely be more designs added in if everything goes well. There will be plenty of them, is all I can say. Put them on your Xmas (next years) wishlist, they should be available officially in stores October 2010, but if all goes to plan, we may have some ready a little earlier than that.

Fleen: Are they putting your designs into a definite price band, or will it vary with the size/complexity?

Yates: The first three will all be around 8″x8″, so they will definitely be affordable and probably around the same price mark. Some bigger or smaller ones may be in the works, we shall see….

Fleen: What’s the name of this line of puzzles? Are they all “Bafflers”, or do they have individual titles, and does the Chris Yates name/website/mention of wooden originals make it onto the packaging?

Yates: “The Baffler by Chris Yates: X” will be the title of the product! This is my thing, Gary-O! Copyright and signature on the back, man! (“X” being the name of the specific design of course).

Fleen: How’s the book [XDM] doing?

Tayler: Quite well, especially when you consider the track record of independently released RPG materials. We’re at the very top of the small-publisher curve. The authors are extremely pleased, and have been well paid. It is not earning me money as quickly as Schlock books do, though, so I need to bust my tuckus and get Resident Mad Scientist ready for print. The kids need new shoes.

I’m still thrilled to be part of the XDM franchise, and if I sound even the tiniest bit disappointed it’s only because I’m accustomed to selling 2000 books in a month of pre-orders as opposed to six months of steady sales.

Fleen: From the descriptions I read online before the seminar, and from some of the summaries at The Daily Cartoonist, I saw “self syndication” as a recurring theme. Does traditional syndication have a future? Must it be much smaller than it was before, on the scale of the individual or small company instead of massive media corporations?

Tayler: My opinion on this grows out of the latest concept that blew my mind. Seth Godin said It’s easier to find content for your audience than audience for your content. Webtoonists struggle to find audiences, but once they’ve got ‘em, look what they do! Penny Arcade launched a convention to rival Dragon*Con! Historically, we have looked at syndicates as gatekeepers to a large audience. The fact of the matter is that they are not.

Who “owns” the audience for a syndicated comic strip like Cathy or Beetle Bailey? It’s not the syndicate, and it’s certainly not the cartoonist. It’s the newspaper editor. These are the guys who have been doing the easy work of finding content for their audience. The problem they have now is that their audience is aging, and up-and-coming audiences are not subscribing to papers.

Those up-and-coming audiences … we all want a piece of them. If newspapers, syndicates, or cartoonists have a future in the coming world it is as owners of audience.

Fleen: Okay, let’s start with the easy one: what was the topic of your presentation? You mentioned it was along the lines of what you learned, but you must have had some structure in mind before you went live.

Tayler: I knew what I did not want to present. Most of those at the event had seen my Free Content Business Model presentation on YouTube, and repeating that would have been bad form, especially since some of the data was two years old in 2007, and is demonstrably erroneous.

I didn’t have a firm presentation in mind when I got on the plane. I’m comfortable shooting from the hip, I knew I was going last, so I figured I’d let thoughts coalesce during the event.

What I ended up presenting was Concepts That Have Blown My Mind. It was a tour of some important things I’ve learned, things that have altered the landscape of my mind. They included mundane things like the principle of Opportunity Cost, and complex, disputable concepts like Nassim Taleb’s Black Swan and Clayton Christensen’s Disruptive Innovations. Each was presented anecdotally in the context of where I was in life at that time, and how learning these things shaped my decisions.

Fleen: Let’s start with the basics: how large is TopatoCo at the moment?

Post: Counting Jeffrey [Rowland, webcartoonist and TopatoCo supreme leader] and myself, we have four full-time employees, three part-time, and another hire on the way [at TopatoCo headquarters in Easthampton, Massachusetts]. Also, [David] Malki ! is our Director of Marketing [in Los Angeles]. By Christmas season (which starts in October for us), we’ll probably have to add somebody just to handle the print-on-demand tasks.

Fleen: Given the pretty basic nature of the work — I’m guessing folding a lot of t-shirts — what’s the appeal of TopatoCo. Why shouldn’t I just go work at McDonald’s instead?

Post: For starters, we pay better than McDonald’s. It’s a relaxed atmosphere, folding shirts and listening to podcasts. You’ll start out on general tasks and as we’ve seen what people are good at, and as the need for delegation comes up as we grow in new directions, we add new responsibilities. We’re in the planning stages of offering benefits and insurance — we’ve been shifting from a sole proprietorship to becoming a corporation, now we have to start looking at grownup things.

Fleen: Let’s recap briefly on the terms of your deal with United Features Syndicate: your comics ran three days a week at comics.com for about two years, and this was a syndication development deal, right? That is, with the stars aligning correctly, this could have led to a print syndication contract?

Cloud: Yes. Early in the process it seemed promising, but ultimately they weren’t willing to offer me a print contract.

Fleen: Why are you leaving comics.com?

Cloud: It’s been 2 years and, with no real shot at syndication, I lost faith in the process. I began to feel constrained by the small size and missed the freedom of being independent. To be fair, [UFS acquisitions editor] Ted Rall was very supportive and accommodating. I could have stayed and switched to a larger size. There were no editorial constraints placed on BOASAS. I think what happened was that I put limitations on myself.

Being a syndicated cartoonist has always been a dream of mine, but deep down I knew that BOASAS wasn’t newspaper material. As a feature, it’s a bit too niche and “unfunny” to be a big hit with editors. Newspaper circulations are spiraling downward and the powers that be are becoming ever more conservative. This pleases their boomer-era readers, but alienates the younger internet generation. I don’t know anyone under 25 who subscribes to a newspaper. I’m sure there are a few, but not enough to sustain the industry. Newspapers are eliminating comics, not adding them. This is the reality of syndicated comics today.

Fleen: You’re the second member of Dumbrella that UFS signed; with Rich Stevens giving up his print syndication deal last year, and now you giving up the web deal, is there something fundamentally incompatible between the syndication model and the independence that webcomics creators have?

Cloud: Absolutely not. Both are valid business models and they’re not mutually exclusive. Cartoonists should consider every opportunity. Being independent feels right for BOASAS, but maybe one day I have idea for another comic that’s a good fit for the newspaper environment. The one thing I don’t want to do is force BOASAS into a safe area for the purposes of appealing to feature editors.

Fleen: What’s next for BOASAS? You have a signing with Ted Rall and Stephanie McMillan next week [editor’s note: 7pm on the 13th at Bluestockings Bookstore; McMillan and Rall also have one the previous day at Revolution Books, but what are your plans after that? Any more death-defiance in the cards?

Cloud: Yes. I’m looking forward to event with Ted and Stephanie. To be on the same bill with two of my favorite cartoonists is an honor. As for BOASAS, I’m switching to a larger rectangular size. It’s different from my original large square, but still allows me space to experiment and gives my “jokes” time to develop. I feel invigorated working with this new size. Beyond that, I don’t know. I’m not much of a planner. I want it to be fun again. I want to stop worrying about turning my comic into a business. I want to stick it to the man a lot more.

Fleen: How’s the beard doing? Keeping it in shape in case of emergency?

Cloud: The beard rages on!

Fleen: What’s the last day DS runs in papers?

Stevens: August 10, unless something changes.

Fleen: When do you turn in that last submission?

Stevens: Loan me Dr. Doom’s time machine and I’ll tell you! This may retcon my previous answer.

Fleen: John, Joey’s previously referenced Alan Gershenfeld and Michael Angst, also from E-Line (and their bios are very interesting) in interviews and the like. Tell us a bit about your background and E-Line Ventures.

Boeck: A little background first — previous to forming E-Line, we were working various places in the world, building up self-sustaintaing ventures with social good as a goal. In India, we helped set up call centers — now there’s lots of call centers in India, but we set them up so a village could have a source of income and be self-sustaining [instead of corporate].

Fleen: Sounds like Grameen Bank.

Fleen: Why don’t we start with a bit of background—exactly what change will you guys be taking with respect to Halfpixel Studios?

Guigar: Dave Kellett, Kris Straub, and I will be leaving to form a new Halfpixel group with Scott Kurtz. The new Halfpixel will be much like the current Halfpixel—a place for collaborative efforts among the member artists—but with an added emphasis on comic-convention appearances and our joint projects like the Webcomics Weekly Podcast and the How to Make Webcomics book.

Kellett: With Halfpixel, we’ll all be a bit more independent with our strips and surrounding business. But whenever there’s a group project to be had or a new initiative where two or more of us could collaborate, we’ll be doing it under the Halfpixel banner.

Fleen: … and with respect to Blank Label? Are you guys getting breaking up with BLC, or are you agreeing to see other people?

Guigar: Dave, Kris and I—after an awful lot of discussion and debate—decided that we couldn’t split our energies between the two groups and do well by either. We’re leaving BLC. But we’re leaving as friends.

Straub: Yeah. The webcomic community seems to have collectively settled down from the drama that would have followed an announcement like this. It wasn’t fair to the guys at Blank Label (or the new endeavors at Halfpixel) for us to have our attentions divided. There’s only been well wishes and high expectations from everyone in both groups.

Kellett: One of the core things that’s always made Blank Label work is the idea that “everyone contributes�?. Everyone pitches in, and everyone reaps the benefits. But if we’re putting all of our free energies into Halfpixel, we can’t contribute to BLC … and we really felt it wasn’t fair to ride on other people’s effort.