Fleen: So, how did you end up with the publishers of puzzles to Thomas Kincade, Painter of Light™ ™?

Yates: Well, Gary, I was just minding my business one day back in June, y’know, making puzzles, comics, toys, y’know the usual. And then all of a sudden this dude Jason from a big puzzle and game manufacturer emails me and just found my work, and is super-excited. We talk on the phone later that day and agree to see if we can’t make some kind of production Bafflers available to the masses.

Over the six-month viability and development process, (VP of Development) Jason and Ceaco at large have treated me with respect and seem truly excited to break some ground, making something the mainstream puzzle market hasn’t seen before.

But to answer your question directly, Jason said he was just surfing the web for interesting illustrators for work, but I only had one, expensive, highly clicked Project Wonderful ad for my puzzles up that very day at Questionable Content. So yes.

Fleen: Are you doing original Baffler designs, or have they licensed some of your existing designs?

Yates: Ceaco and I will be working together to adapt previous designs I’ve made in painted wood for the initial series. It’s been and going to be a tricky process, but I’m confident we’re going to get some great results.

The production Bafflers will still be inlaid tray puzzles, printed on chipboard, with graphics directly taken from an extensive spray-paint mottling “library” I am providing. Ceaco is creating custom dies to cut each of the Baffler designs, so they will be just as lovely and tough as my original.

Fleen: Since most of us probably aren’t puzzle afficianados, give us some scope — how many puzzle designs do these people publish each year, how many copies, in how wide a market?

Yates: Ceaco is a gentle giant, one of the largest North American jigsaw puzzle companies, selling and distributing world-wide, via many imprints and licenses. They sell jigsaw puzzles everywhere you can find them. From specialty game shops like It’s Your Move to Barnes & Noble and Target, it’ll be out there!

I am not exactly sure how many other folks’ work Ceaco pick up a year, nor their exact distribution figures, but I do know they are selective and successful, so hopefully that is a good sign!

Fleen: Any idea how many copies they’re going to print of your designs? How many designs, and over what time frame?

Yates: We’re starting with 3 “abstract geometric” designs for the first production run, but there will likely be more designs added in if everything goes well. There will be plenty of them, is all I can say. Put them on your Xmas (next years) wishlist, they should be available officially in stores October 2010, but if all goes to plan, we may have some ready a little earlier than that.

Fleen: Are they putting your designs into a definite price band, or will it vary with the size/complexity?

Yates: The first three will all be around 8″x8″, so they will definitely be affordable and probably around the same price mark. Some bigger or smaller ones may be in the works, we shall see….

Fleen: What’s the name of this line of puzzles? Are they all “Bafflers”, or do they have individual titles, and does the Chris Yates name/website/mention of wooden originals make it onto the packaging?

Yates: “The Baffler by Chris Yates: X” will be the title of the product! This is my thing, Gary-O! Copyright and signature on the back, man! (“X” being the name of the specific design of course).

Fleen: How’s the book [XDM] doing?

Tayler: Quite well, especially when you consider the track record of independently released RPG materials. We’re at the very top of the small-publisher curve. The authors are extremely pleased, and have been well paid. It is not earning me money as quickly as Schlock books do, though, so I need to bust my tuckus and get Resident Mad Scientist ready for print. The kids need new shoes.

I’m still thrilled to be part of the XDM franchise, and if I sound even the tiniest bit disappointed it’s only because I’m accustomed to selling 2000 books in a month of pre-orders as opposed to six months of steady sales.

Fleen: From the descriptions I read online before the seminar, and from some of the summaries at The Daily Cartoonist, I saw “self syndication” as a recurring theme. Does traditional syndication have a future? Must it be much smaller than it was before, on the scale of the individual or small company instead of massive media corporations?

Tayler: My opinion on this grows out of the latest concept that blew my mind. Seth Godin said It’s easier to find content for your audience than audience for your content. Webtoonists struggle to find audiences, but once they’ve got ‘em, look what they do! Penny Arcade launched a convention to rival Dragon*Con! Historically, we have looked at syndicates as gatekeepers to a large audience. The fact of the matter is that they are not.

Who “owns” the audience for a syndicated comic strip like Cathy or Beetle Bailey? It’s not the syndicate, and it’s certainly not the cartoonist. It’s the newspaper editor. These are the guys who have been doing the easy work of finding content for their audience. The problem they have now is that their audience is aging, and up-and-coming audiences are not subscribing to papers.

Those up-and-coming audiences … we all want a piece of them. If newspapers, syndicates, or cartoonists have a future in the coming world it is as owners of audience.

Fleen: Okay, let’s start with the easy one: what was the topic of your presentation? You mentioned it was along the lines of what you learned, but you must have had some structure in mind before you went live.

Tayler: I knew what I did not want to present. Most of those at the event had seen my Free Content Business Model presentation on YouTube, and repeating that would have been bad form, especially since some of the data was two years old in 2007, and is demonstrably erroneous.

I didn’t have a firm presentation in mind when I got on the plane. I’m comfortable shooting from the hip, I knew I was going last, so I figured I’d let thoughts coalesce during the event.

What I ended up presenting was Concepts That Have Blown My Mind. It was a tour of some important things I’ve learned, things that have altered the landscape of my mind. They included mundane things like the principle of Opportunity Cost, and complex, disputable concepts like Nassim Taleb’s Black Swan and Clayton Christensen’s Disruptive Innovations. Each was presented anecdotally in the context of where I was in life at that time, and how learning these things shaped my decisions.

Fleen: Let’s start with the basics: how large is TopatoCo at the moment?

Post: Counting Jeffrey [Rowland, webcartoonist and TopatoCo supreme leader] and myself, we have four full-time employees, three part-time, and another hire on the way [at TopatoCo headquarters in Easthampton, Massachusetts]. Also, [David] Malki ! is our Director of Marketing [in Los Angeles]. By Christmas season (which starts in October for us), we’ll probably have to add somebody just to handle the print-on-demand tasks.

Fleen: Given the pretty basic nature of the work — I’m guessing folding a lot of t-shirts — what’s the appeal of TopatoCo. Why shouldn’t I just go work at McDonald’s instead?

Post: For starters, we pay better than McDonald’s. It’s a relaxed atmosphere, folding shirts and listening to podcasts. You’ll start out on general tasks and as we’ve seen what people are good at, and as the need for delegation comes up as we grow in new directions, we add new responsibilities. We’re in the planning stages of offering benefits and insurance — we’ve been shifting from a sole proprietorship to becoming a corporation, now we have to start looking at grownup things.

Fleen: Let’s recap briefly on the terms of your deal with United Features Syndicate: your comics ran three days a week at comics.com for about two years, and this was a syndication development deal, right? That is, with the stars aligning correctly, this could have led to a print syndication contract?

Cloud: Yes. Early in the process it seemed promising, but ultimately they weren’t willing to offer me a print contract.

Fleen: Why are you leaving comics.com?

Cloud: It’s been 2 years and, with no real shot at syndication, I lost faith in the process. I began to feel constrained by the small size and missed the freedom of being independent. To be fair, [UFS acquisitions editor] Ted Rall was very supportive and accommodating. I could have stayed and switched to a larger size. There were no editorial constraints placed on BOASAS. I think what happened was that I put limitations on myself.

Being a syndicated cartoonist has always been a dream of mine, but deep down I knew that BOASAS wasn’t newspaper material. As a feature, it’s a bit too niche and “unfunny” to be a big hit with editors. Newspaper circulations are spiraling downward and the powers that be are becoming ever more conservative. This pleases their boomer-era readers, but alienates the younger internet generation. I don’t know anyone under 25 who subscribes to a newspaper. I’m sure there are a few, but not enough to sustain the industry. Newspapers are eliminating comics, not adding them. This is the reality of syndicated comics today.

Fleen: You’re the second member of Dumbrella that UFS signed; with Rich Stevens giving up his print syndication deal last year, and now you giving up the web deal, is there something fundamentally incompatible between the syndication model and the independence that webcomics creators have?

Cloud: Absolutely not. Both are valid business models and they’re not mutually exclusive. Cartoonists should consider every opportunity. Being independent feels right for BOASAS, but maybe one day I have idea for another comic that’s a good fit for the newspaper environment. The one thing I don’t want to do is force BOASAS into a safe area for the purposes of appealing to feature editors.

Fleen: What’s next for BOASAS? You have a signing with Ted Rall and Stephanie McMillan next week [editor’s note: 7pm on the 13th at Bluestockings Bookstore; McMillan and Rall also have one the previous day at Revolution Books, but what are your plans after that? Any more death-defiance in the cards?

Cloud: Yes. I’m looking forward to event with Ted and Stephanie. To be on the same bill with two of my favorite cartoonists is an honor. As for BOASAS, I’m switching to a larger rectangular size. It’s different from my original large square, but still allows me space to experiment and gives my “jokes” time to develop. I feel invigorated working with this new size. Beyond that, I don’t know. I’m not much of a planner. I want it to be fun again. I want to stop worrying about turning my comic into a business. I want to stick it to the man a lot more.

Fleen: How’s the beard doing? Keeping it in shape in case of emergency?

Cloud: The beard rages on!

Fleen: What’s the last day DS runs in papers?

Stevens: August 10, unless something changes.

Fleen: When do you turn in that last submission?

Stevens: Loan me Dr. Doom’s time machine and I’ll tell you! This may retcon my previous answer.

Fleen: John, Joey’s previously referenced Alan Gershenfeld and Michael Angst, also from E-Line (and their bios are very interesting) in interviews and the like. Tell us a bit about your background and E-Line Ventures.

Boeck: A little background first — previous to forming E-Line, we were working various places in the world, building up self-sustaintaing ventures with social good as a goal. In India, we helped set up call centers — now there’s lots of call centers in India, but we set them up so a village could have a source of income and be self-sustaining [instead of corporate].

Fleen: Sounds like Grameen Bank.

Fleen: Why don’t we start with a bit of background—exactly what change will you guys be taking with respect to Halfpixel Studios?

Guigar: Dave Kellett, Kris Straub, and I will be leaving to form a new Halfpixel group with Scott Kurtz. The new Halfpixel will be much like the current Halfpixel—a place for collaborative efforts among the member artists—but with an added emphasis on comic-convention appearances and our joint projects like the Webcomics Weekly Podcast and the How to Make Webcomics book.

Kellett: With Halfpixel, we’ll all be a bit more independent with our strips and surrounding business. But whenever there’s a group project to be had or a new initiative where two or more of us could collaborate, we’ll be doing it under the Halfpixel banner.

Fleen: … and with respect to Blank Label? Are you guys getting breaking up with BLC, or are you agreeing to see other people?

Guigar: Dave, Kris and I—after an awful lot of discussion and debate—decided that we couldn’t split our energies between the two groups and do well by either. We’re leaving BLC. But we’re leaving as friends.

Straub: Yeah. The webcomic community seems to have collectively settled down from the drama that would have followed an announcement like this. It wasn’t fair to the guys at Blank Label (or the new endeavors at Halfpixel) for us to have our attentions divided. There’s only been well wishes and high expectations from everyone in both groups.

Kellett: One of the core things that’s always made Blank Label work is the idea that “everyone contributes�?. Everyone pitches in, and everyone reaps the benefits. But if we’re putting all of our free energies into Halfpixel, we can’t contribute to BLC … and we really felt it wasn’t fair to ride on other people’s effort.

Fleen: What kind of job are you leaving?

Diaz: I do animations for training software for an airplane manufacturer. It’s possibly the most average and unremarkable job I’ve ever had.

Fleen: You promised comics every week — does that mean a full-bore Dresden Codak every week, or perhaps something less ambitious?

Diaz: I’m shooting for a full comic every week. The biggest cause for delay with previous updates is that I’m only really ever able to work on the comic on weekends. Freeing up my week should help move things along.

Fleen: United Media has decided that they weren’t interested in Little Dee. In your time with them, did you get the idea that they knew what they wanted to do with the strip?

Baldwin: I can only conclude that they were not totally sure. Towards the end, the editorial feedback I was receiving was almost entirely positive, but they also felt it needed more development. If they did know what they wanted, it wasn’t trickling down.

Fleen: How is the strip different than it was 14 months ago? What’s better because of your UM deal, and where do you think you were held back from your full potential?

Baldwin: I think it was a great 14 months, and I didn’t feel held back. It can be difficult to take criticism, and so I went in planning to go with the flow and take the strip wherever they wanted it. But their feedback consisted almost entirely of basic text editing. Word choice and tightening the text. Always good things to learn. I don’t think it underwent any notable changes or changes I really object to. I might pursue some longer story lines, but have no current plans for any.